What can we learn from Character Creators and Healthy Relationships in games? | PNWS Ep. 1
00:00:06:10 - 00:00:21:42
Wade
Hey, what's up everybody? And welcome to the very first episode of the Professor Noctis weekly show. I am here with my co-host Evan, and we are excited to get things going on this brand new show. Evan, what do we have today.
00:00:21:47 - 00:00:45:55
Evan
On today's episode? First of all, we're glad that you joined us. Second of all, on today's episode, today's episode, we have our first installment of our Character Creator series, where we explore the history and psychology around why and how we create, the characters that we create and the games that we love and play. We have a mini game, Stretch Break, which you'll be invited to participate in.
00:00:46:00 - 00:00:58:08
Evan
We have a segment on healthy relationships and our fantasy two reality series, and then we'll end with gains before gains as we start to debrief and process the show. Let's get right into it.
00:00:58:12 - 00:01:00:56
Wade
Sounds great. With that, let's walk to all my friends.
00:01:01:21 - 00:01:26:16
Evan
Wait. I'm really excited for this next segment that we have coming up, and it's our segment on character creators. We're going to be hopefully doing this over multiple episodes, and I think it's going to be a really fun dive on some of the psychology and reasoning behind why we do things the way that we do in games. Just to get us started, though, you have some experience with character creators.
00:01:26:17 - 00:01:29:52
Evan
I've spent I've seen you spend a lot of time on them.
00:01:29:57 - 00:01:42:55
Wade
I love a character creator. I'm not very creative, for my part, because I meticulously spend all of my time recreating literally myself.
00:01:43:00 - 00:02:04:23
Evan
Now, that's something interesting that I think we're going to get to do that later in this segment. But I do remember a certain time where we were waiting to play we sports, I think, and we're at my house and we're playing it on the Wii U that you have convinced me to buy the shortest Nintendo console ever.
00:02:04:25 - 00:02:07:58
Wade
Yeah, super success in our hearts, if not in the world.
00:02:08:03 - 00:02:11:49
Evan
I think it was just a little bit ahead of its time as far as what it really was.
00:02:11:49 - 00:02:14:11
Wade
You know, we wait.
00:02:14:17 - 00:02:16:34
Evan
Honestly, we need to do another segment about the Wii U.
00:02:16:45 - 00:02:19:16
Wade
There should be a segment on the Wii U one day, and.
00:02:19:16 - 00:02:37:27
Evan
It's just a love letter to the Wii U, and now it's fun. We had with it. And so everyone is waiting to play this game together. It's Wii Sports, it's come out for the Wii U, there's a new controller and it's going to be great. And you sat there.
00:02:37:32 - 00:02:37:46
Wade
For.
00:02:37:46 - 00:02:42:43
Evan
20 minutes and while everyone wait because you could have just signed in as a.
00:02:42:43 - 00:03:01:43
Wade
Guest, you can't. You can't though. You can't though. You made a ascetics appearance matters. And then it does. It does. I have to feel as though I'm in the game and like, you know, I had to sit through every potential option to make sure this was uniquely me.
00:03:01:48 - 00:03:04:59
Evan
I mean, if you could just imagine a group of people at a party.
00:03:05:06 - 00:03:11:39
Wade
At a party? Yeah, listen, I am the life of the party, but I have to ensure it's true.
00:03:11:40 - 00:03:15:06
Evan
Well, everyone's going to have a better time if your character looks accurate to you.
00:03:15:10 - 00:03:18:20
Wade
Yeah, if Wade's not having a good time, nobody's having a good time. And so.
00:03:18:31 - 00:03:49:59
Evan
And now that is. Now that is true. Now that is true. So with this segment on character creators, we're going to be looking at the kind of overall concept. We're going to examine some of the history behind character creators. And really we're going to get into some of the psychology of why we make the decisions that we make, the types of people that make different characters, the process that they follow and maybe what that means and says and the insights that we can gain into our own life and kind of elevate our play a little bit when it comes to this idea of character creators, how are you feeling now?
00:03:49:59 - 00:04:06:42
Wade
This is the stuff that I love, right? Like I love it's not so much what you create, but why did you create it? Those are the questions that wake me up in the morning and it's like, why did you choose that? I know no judgment on why you chose that, chose it, but like, why and that kind of deep dive.
00:04:06:42 - 00:04:17:27
Wade
Because there's always a reason, I think, why we choose to convey ourselves in the ways that we do, whether it's in the world or in the games. And so that's what oh, I love that.
00:04:17:31 - 00:04:34:05
Evan
So so as you're listening and watching to this, you, you're present in this segment like you are going to be present in this segment the entire way. Your friends and family members that you play games with, you're going to see bits and pieces of themselves in there. And so I would encourage you as somebody comes to mind, think about it, right.
00:04:34:05 - 00:04:44:48
Evan
Share it with them, talk about it. And hopefully this can create some discussion and understand bonding or at least making fun of our friends and why they spent 20 minutes making their me avatar before you could play a game.
00:04:45:00 - 00:05:06:46
Wade
Thank you for the subtle dig again, but I mean it is a great thing, right? Because like all of us get to when when you know this stuff, you get to almost play like armchair psychologists thinking like, okay, what was going through your head at that point? Why was it so important for Wade to spend 20 minutes at a party with a group of people eager to play Wii Sports, or whatever it was?
00:05:06:51 - 00:05:17:39
Wade
Why was it important for him to create that avatar like that? And I think we've all got those stories today. I'm excited to dive into why why did we do that?
00:05:17:44 - 00:05:36:29
Evan
It's a fun part of play, right, is that we can learn a lot from each other and from someone in the way that we play and choose to play and engage with fun and make believe. And a lot of that, we talk about this a lot. A lot of that seems to go away when we get older. And you hit a certain point in life where you say, oh, well, I don't know.
00:05:36:29 - 00:05:57:41
Evan
We're not going to play pretend anymore. But video games have really given adults, a lot of avenues to kind of engage with those elements of play as kind of things have changed in the world the way that we think about leisure and recreation. Yeah. and so this is an important part of it. Right? Because the way you played as a kid with your friends is very interesting.
00:05:57:51 - 00:06:03:04
Evan
My friends and I used to pretend that we were airplanes when we were riding our bike. Right. Like, what's the psychology of that?
00:06:03:04 - 00:06:20:03
Wade
Right. Well, I and I think that you've exactly hit it like this isn't unique to video games. This is this is unique to just life, right? I remember when I was playing baseball, my brother and I would play baseball, on on teams and stuff. Little League and stuff. There's five years difference between me and my brother, but I was able to see it for myself and then for him.
00:06:20:10 - 00:06:43:59
Wade
When you choose a glove or when you choose a bat or something, there's something deeply personal about that. Right? and so I remember, like, I had my, my, like, kid's glove, like the learner's glove when I was in Little League in T-ball. But I remember when I started doing, like, fast pitch baseball and stuff, my dad gave me his glove, and that felt very different.
00:06:43:59 - 00:07:10:29
Wade
Right? Sure. my brother, when he started playing football, one of the things that he did, like my dad's number in high school when he played football was 21 when my brother made his 42. Why? It doubled 21. Right. And so, like, there's something about like the way that we convey ourselves to the world, what we choose to accessorize ourself with in order to play a game or a sport or really anything.
00:07:10:34 - 00:07:30:06
Wade
It says something about our psyche and how we want to convey ourselves. you can say this not just with games, but the kinds of cars that we are interested in driving versus things that we think are cool, but maybe not for us. All of that speaks to something. And and so we we gamify play even in real life.
00:07:30:11 - 00:07:40:11
Wade
And I think that that's one of the most interesting things. But, sometimes it's just like, hey, I like that thing, but I feel like the answers are usually much deeper than that.
00:07:40:16 - 00:07:53:51
Evan
Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting how we can blow past certain parts of it where it just seems automatic. This is what I'm going to do. And then some parts of it can be incredibly paralyzing, like choosing a username for a gamertag.
00:07:53:51 - 00:08:14:35
Wade
Right. And so like usernames. What what a great question. Because like that is that's such a big piece of character creation. And like I remember when I started Final Fantasy 14 in World of Warcraft before that the the screen of like, what do you want your avatars name to be was almost crippling. I was like, I wasn't ready for that.
00:08:14:35 - 00:08:16:48
Wade
I was ready to play games and kill Morlocks.
00:08:16:48 - 00:08:17:50
Evan
Who biggest question.
00:08:17:55 - 00:08:38:19
Wade
Is that this is what I'm going to. And so I've chosen a name that actually wasn't Professor Noctis, because I did this like in high school and grad school and stuff, and like, I'm, I'm still using that name because I've committed to it as my I right, you know, but yeah, even usernames. Professor Noctis, are you going by whiskers?
00:08:38:26 - 00:08:39:51
Wade
I mean, we have origin stories.
00:08:40:01 - 00:09:03:54
Evan
That it is interesting and I, I think we've come up with a better system. But back in the day, you used to be able to get basic usernames, and nowadays it's like just already taken uses already. Take it. Right. We've all been through that. A new game account comes out and user's already taken into account, and the little red text that would always pop under it.
00:09:04:05 - 00:09:20:57
Evan
It felt like I had failed in class, right? Like it was like a giant red F, like I'm not. You didn't get your. Yeah, yeah. Not creative enough. You didn't get here fast enough. I think the Xbox Live auto generated ones were some of the best that ever.
00:09:20:58 - 00:09:23:46
Wade
What was yours?
00:09:23:51 - 00:09:28:34
Evan
The, my actual Xbox Live username or like, like auto generated like one.
00:09:28:41 - 00:09:33:28
Wade
I don't know which. Whichever one that you like picked or chose, whatever.
00:09:33:33 - 00:09:55:15
Evan
I my auto generated one was, I hate that pig. Oh, it's a family story. because, and maybe I, I could get into it, but it's it's a it's a family story about. My grandma saw a dog on the TV, and it said that she she thought it was a pig because she couldn't see really well.
00:09:55:19 - 00:09:58:01
Evan
And so should I just tell the story?
00:09:58:01 - 00:10:00:24
Wade
I mean, I think you have to, like, I.
00:10:00:29 - 00:10:27:04
Evan
I didn't expect this to come out in this segment. We're about here treasured. This is a treasured family story that I'm about to, make register up. So back in the day, in the 90s, there was a commercial for a certain beer company, and they had a dog that was a bull terrier named spuds Mackenzie. Do you remember spuds Mackenzie?
00:10:27:09 - 00:10:43:43
Evan
It was the party dog. The general idea was that you could just be a dog. And as long as you brought this specific beverage to the party, everyone would love you. And it was the party dog that was the name of. It's in this might be a good time. You know, maybe we could do a visual of spuds Mackenzie or whatever.
00:10:43:48 - 00:11:05:43
Evan
Good. So this commercial's just on over and over and over again. You know how the commercials work in on anything that you're watching in sports where it's like, by the time the event is done, you're just absolutely sick of everything about these commercials. There's always that one that happens. Like every football season. And so this dog over party dog, party dog, spuds Mackenzie specific cans, especially Kenzie.
00:11:05:48 - 00:11:11:28
Evan
And then the room kind of gets quiet, the commercial clicks off and my grandma goes, I hate that pig. What
00:11:11:28 - 00:11:21:36
Evan
I do wonder though, what some of your early experiences with actually being able to make your own character because.
00:11:21:41 - 00:11:22:22
Wade
Yeah, if we.
00:11:22:22 - 00:11:38:37
Evan
Go look at the history of character creators, choosing much that you could customize about yourself wasn't something for a while. So do you have, like, a earliest memory of being able to actually change the elements of the character besides the name, which I know we're going to get into later?
00:11:38:41 - 00:12:14:44
Wade
So I have two stories come to mind, and the first, when I was in high school and my buddy bean, he was more into PC games than I was. And so, actually, both of my character creator stories come from my friend bean. the first one, I went over to his house after school one day. He had just gotten a brand new game called The Sims, and I realized that he had created literally everyone that we knew in this game, The Sims and, did you you played The Sims, right?
00:12:14:49 - 00:12:15:19
Evan
Oh, yeah.
00:12:15:21 - 00:12:37:22
Wade
Oh, I bet. So this is the original one where, like, we didn't really know what it was by Sims two. We were ready for, like, you know, the massacres, the house fires, the like pools with no ladders to get out, all that stuff. Sims one was like a brand new world of, like, let's watch these people was like reality shows before reality shows were a thing.
00:12:37:22 - 00:12:38:10
Wade
You know.
00:12:38:14 - 00:12:39:55
Evan
We tormented the digital head.
00:12:39:55 - 00:13:02:16
Wade
We absolutely did. And and like, it started out like, oh, look, we've got to feed them and care for them. It's like our own little digital Tamagotchi of ourselves, which is another reference, I guess. Right? But then it became, let's put them in ridiculous scenarios. And, I remember going to his house after school and we would we would just do this.
00:13:02:16 - 00:13:13:15
Wade
And like, I remember the first time one of us died and it was like, do we have a funeral for them? Like, is this like a sad sort of moment? Like, yeah. And then it was like, no, let's just like make another one.
00:13:13:15 - 00:13:15:37
Evan
And you, you realize quickly that.
00:13:15:41 - 00:13:19:10
Wade
We realized quickly that this is a reincarnation system.
00:13:19:15 - 00:13:25:40
Evan
We had just pop up a little grave where they died in The Sims, or is that one of the later was right?
00:13:25:42 - 00:13:50:14
Wade
I bet, like, I may be like, crossing streams or something. but I think that that's the first experience that I really had with like, an actual character creator. I know that there were other things where I had agents in games, but The Sims was like, okay, you can create, you can see yourself and like create a reality show of your your people.
00:13:50:14 - 00:13:51:54
Wade
Right?
00:13:51:59 - 00:14:10:55
Evan
That the Sims were wild. This would make each other each other's children, like in the family. Right? Because you had to start off with like the first one, you had to start off with like a family unit and then we would they would have a child and then one of our other friends would be the child. Yeah. And they expanded like what you could do as the game went on.
00:14:11:09 - 00:14:26:46
Evan
But we kind of crashed head first into The Sims because it was we used to play SimCity and that was that was what it was, was that. Yeah, SIM City and then disaster would strike your city and yeah, you know, all this stuff and like, we didn't understand any of the thing with governance or taxes or anything, like we just like the tornadoes.
00:14:26:51 - 00:14:27:34
Wade
Yeah.
00:14:27:39 - 00:14:37:26
Evan
I mean, you just. Hey, listen, I'm building, I'm building. Right? We just kind of treat it like Legos. And then they were like, we're coming up with this one called The Sims. And it's like that, but with people and we were like, wait, what?
00:14:37:26 - 00:14:42:34
Wade
When? It's a new level of disaster, right. because it's suddenly personal and.
00:14:42:34 - 00:14:43:01
Evan
Oh, yeah.
00:14:43:02 - 00:15:04:28
Wade
Oh, man. So one of the things that I remember doing there was an expansion, I think, for The Sims, one that really upped the romance stuff. And so I remember creating, like when you're in high school, you know, in your friend group, you know, whether it's the faux pas or whatever, people start to have feelings for each other.
00:15:04:28 - 00:15:07:05
Wade
So we would test run it in the Sims and.
00:15:07:08 - 00:15:08:07
Evan
Oh my gosh.
00:15:08:07 - 00:15:08:49
Wade
We'd be like.
00:15:08:49 - 00:15:09:14
Evan
Not this.
00:15:09:14 - 00:15:10:56
Wade
Relationship gonna work or.
00:15:10:56 - 00:15:32:32
Evan
Not, I love it. Okay, so The Sims so this is the wonders of the internet. So The Sims was released. it looks like at around 2000, there was the third expansion was Hot Date. That was it hot? Yes. Yes, that's the one. November 14th, 2001. Had to wait a whole year. They let you play and hang out for a year and then they expanded.
00:15:32:32 - 00:15:50:58
Wade
The senior in high school. I remember doing this. Oh my gosh. It was like it was like The Bachelor before. I guess the Bachelor had already been made by that point, but it was like our own reality show with our friends that we could create. It was incredible.
00:15:51:03 - 00:15:55:15
Evan
The Bachelor was two years after The Sims came out. What? Oh my God.
00:15:55:15 - 00:15:56:41
Wade
I created The Bachelor.
00:15:56:43 - 00:16:02:49
Evan
You did just happen. You did this. You did this. Have they been sending you the royalty checks or.
00:16:02:54 - 00:16:07:31
Wade
I can't speak legally about it. I think Disney owns them and they're going to own me soon.
00:16:07:31 - 00:16:24:28
Evan
So yeah, they already do. Yeah. You signed a deal as a 15 year old. I did. That's perfect. Oh, that's so many other games combined. where you like, could like, make, like, specific characters, whether it's in your own image or in your own, like, cartoon.
00:16:24:39 - 00:16:41:58
Wade
So maybe picking up where we left off with The Sims. my friend and I started, like, we found other games when we were in college, and one of those games was, I forget which one, but it was one of the WWE games.
00:16:42:03 - 00:16:42:35
Evan
legendary.
00:16:42:48 - 00:16:53:18
Wade
Yeah, because they had this, like robust character creator. Right. And, so again, picking up where we left off with the dramedy that was The Sims and this.
00:16:53:18 - 00:16:54:01
Evan
Has been again.
00:16:54:03 - 00:16:55:17
Wade
This has been again.
00:16:55:22 - 00:16:56:18
Evan
And I'm saying.
00:16:56:29 - 00:17:03:18
Wade
Not to be confused with the, Irish restaurant Bennigan's, but, then again.
00:17:03:23 - 00:17:07:13
Evan
local to you. Have you ever been defend against. It's like a.
00:17:07:13 - 00:17:28:11
Wade
Chain, I think. I think it's I really I yeah, like, it was a big deal. Bennigan's. They had a great Monte Cristo. Dude, do you know the Monte Cristo is is about 5000 calories, and, Yeah, it's a capsule. It's like fried food. Double fried into a sandwich with sugar powder.
00:17:28:11 - 00:17:31:13
Evan
It's like a bloomin onion. And Reuben sandwich.
00:17:31:18 - 00:17:43:43
Wade
Is too healthy. So it's like a Reuben sandwich that's been deep fried with powdered sugar and a crispy outside fried layer. It's almost like a funnel cake. It's a funnel cake. Wanted to be a Rupert.
00:17:43:47 - 00:17:50:23
Evan
Oh, my. Little baby. Funnel cake. When you grow up. He wants to be Western.
00:17:50:26 - 00:17:51:50
Wade
Here, right?
00:17:51:55 - 00:17:53:01
Evan
Oh, wow.
00:17:53:05 - 00:17:56:40
Wade
Yeah. It's amazing. Right? It literally is like 5000 calories, though, so you shouldn't eat it.
00:17:56:40 - 00:17:57:47
Evan
Yeah.
00:17:57:52 - 00:18:00:12
Wade
yeah. Unless you only have bulk or something, I don't.
00:18:00:12 - 00:18:02:11
Evan
Know, 13 locations in the United States.
00:18:02:11 - 00:18:06:29
Wade
13 locations. And one of them was in my hometown. It's closed now, but,
00:18:06:33 - 00:18:08:23
Evan
Yeah. Yes, it does look like it's closed.
00:18:08:25 - 00:18:47:27
Wade
Yeah. Anyway, Ben again, and I, when we were in college, we made everyone that we knew in a wrestling game. One of these WWF, WWE, WrestleMania games or whatever. And, we would of course have them fight and have tag teams and stuff. but I remember we would have different belts, right? And we would run tournaments, automate them, and we would put standings out and say, yeah, Jessica beat, you know, David for, for this belt and people.
00:18:47:27 - 00:19:08:32
Wade
Okay. There was like this, this fear that we were running some like Fight Club ring on our campuses because we would give it into no context. And like, I remember one of our friends was in a sorority and we were just like, yeah, Jessica totally beat up this person. It's just like, we're we're world wrestling champion.
00:19:08:32 - 00:19:08:52
Evan
Yeah.
00:19:08:54 - 00:19:19:01
Wade
Rumored today, we would have absolutely been called before, like deans and stuff. Been like, you're spreading lies. But back then it was the Wild West.
00:19:19:06 - 00:19:28:40
Evan
Okay, so how did this sounds like this had impact outside of just YouTube playing the game and it made the game become a part of your. Oh yeah, social scene.
00:19:28:40 - 00:19:39:11
Wade
Because then they wanted to see themselves and they wanted to see the stats that we gave them. Right? I mean, people that lost to Jessica in her reign of terror like they had to be.
00:19:39:12 - 00:19:48:26
Evan
Oh, no, I didn't realize. I didn't realize that you not only I just thought you were visually me. No, no, no. We gave you were assigning them strengths and weaknesses.
00:19:48:26 - 00:19:51:07
Wade
Like we're they're good at grappling. Where they good at hitting, where.
00:19:51:07 - 00:19:51:46
Evan
They.
00:19:51:50 - 00:19:53:43
Wade
Bad at technique, technique and stuff.
00:19:53:48 - 00:19:59:31
Evan
And that you absolutely did it. You took it very seriously. Oh, based on real life.
00:19:59:31 - 00:20:11:20
Wade
So the 20 minutes that I spent with you trying to create my We avatar, that was nothing compared to the literal days that we would spend on each character in WrestleMania two or whatever it was.
00:20:11:22 - 00:20:17:46
Evan
Okay, here's the question. Did you ever, like, push, pause, observe someone in real life? Then both of you go back and, like.
00:20:17:50 - 00:20:26:32
Wade
We wouldn't have had it. Yeah, like we were constantly doing research, like watching people. It's like, okay, so how would how would he respond in this situation? Okay. You're like.
00:20:26:32 - 00:20:30:37
Evan
Hey, could you pick that box? And it's like, oh, we kind of struggled with them. So we would go back.
00:20:30:37 - 00:20:50:25
Wade
And we'd be like, let's just move that down. Oh yeah, move that, milestone down. Yeah, it was it was true to form. And, there were some people that we didn't know very well, but we knew them well enough to put into a bracket because we need like no. 32 people or 64 people. Right. So it was like there was this one guy.
00:20:50:25 - 00:21:14:43
Wade
He is now a really good friend of mine. His name is Justin. Right. but the only thing that we really knew about him was that he wore a yellow shirt back then. And so we literally gave him Justin yellow shirt, and that was his name, Justin yellow shirt. And he wore yellow shirt. And he came out and he was like his he looked like him into this day.
00:21:14:43 - 00:21:20:13
Wade
Like Justin will say to us, I never wore a yellow shirt and there's no one on our heads. You did.
00:21:20:18 - 00:21:22:19
Evan
You always did an interesting way.
00:21:22:19 - 00:21:23:56
Wade
That,
00:21:24:01 - 00:21:47:18
Evan
And maybe this is a bit of a tangent, but the way that we all of this is a ten, this whole segment is this is the way that we sort people in our lives into roles and like how they would fit there, right? The way that we socially organize ourselves and like their impact. And then you just turned that into a video game because you needed more characters for your Royal Rumble.
00:21:47:22 - 00:21:53:30
Wade
I mean, for right? Because like you, again, fantasy always imitates reality, you
00:21:53:30 - 00:22:16:39
Wade
you know? so I11 of my areas of research is about how do we incorporate games into education, also into our everyday life. I want to I actually want to cite some research here, okay. Because I think this is actually pretty interesting. There's a book called I avatar, I Combat Avatar The Culture and Consequences of Having a Second Life.
00:22:16:39 - 00:22:55:52
Wade
Pretty amazing title, right? it's a book by Mark Steven Meadows, and I want to read just a brief excerpt from the first chapter, because it kind of shockingly not prepared for this goes into what we have exactly been talking about specifically for, the game called The Sims. So he describes avatars as simply your character in a game, whether it's one that's chosen for you in the way that you convey that character, or one that you have complete agency over all of the, you know, esthetics, emotions, abilities, all that kind of stuff.
00:22:55:52 - 00:23:14:57
Wade
Sure. So he says, let's consider the best selling PC game of all time, The Sims. The Sims is a simulation more than it is a game. The characters in The Sims are more complicated than Mario, because most of the game is about creating and managing relationships, and doing so within Maslow's hierarchy of needs. That's like a pretty huge thing, right?
00:23:14:57 - 00:23:43:43
Wade
Because it's bringing in Maslow's hierarchy of needs and gamifying it in a way that people find fun or, you know, sadistic or however you choose to play. He says that there are, in his research. excuse me? It wasn't his research. He says they're, due to the producers of the game, Max paid for research to find out why this game sold more than 25 million units.
00:23:43:43 - 00:24:11:02
Wade
The result broke users into eight categories of stop. They found that half of the players were female, which was a first in a video game, and they found out that despite even division of gender, people fell evenly into the following four categories. There were the former's first. These, these were the people that played the game as it was intended to be played, following the rules and working to generate healthy, happy sims.
00:24:11:06 - 00:24:33:00
Wade
Number two, there was the Death Dealers. This is a group that the people did just the opposite of that and killed everyone off, or set fires or tried to kill their sims. Number three were the reality television viewers. These are the people who were interested in the strife and the drama. Among the characters. Watching the game become more than just any bachelor.
00:24:33:02 - 00:24:33:29
Evan
Got it?
00:24:33:33 - 00:24:44:59
Wade
The Bachelor and then you have the dollhouse ers. These were the materialists who collected furnishings and was like, I want that new rug, I want that do that.
00:24:45:00 - 00:24:52:24
Evan
So I those are excellent. I mean, that makes all the sense in the world based on what I've experienced with and friends that I have that still play these games.
00:24:52:29 - 00:24:57:15
Wade
Absolutely amazing. Right. And so like, I know people that fit into those categories and.
00:24:57:15 - 00:25:00:04
Evan
I have been to each of them at one point. Yeah.
00:25:00:13 - 00:25:25:29
Wade
And so they multiply that across, so despite being, the author says despite being from eight different groups, that's two genders for each category. when this book was written, three quarters of the users, regardless of gender or play style, were interested in the interaction between the avatars. And so he kind of goes off of that. Now, this is chapter one of this book, and it goes into the why beyond all of that.
00:25:25:29 - 00:25:50:06
Wade
And what does that say about our own personal psyche and stuff? Just such a cool lens. because I look at the way that that I engaged with The Sims, even with the WrestleMania game, and I'm like, oh man, I see myself as a doll. Or like getting the different X, the belts or whatever. the Death Dealers, let's create chaos, the reality television.
00:25:50:17 - 00:25:57:15
Wade
And it's like, man, how many times have I done that with all of these games, with character creation? That's what makes it fun.
00:25:57:20 - 00:26:05:34
Evan
Yeah, I, I'm just trying to think about, having to explain your play style at the dinner table.
00:26:05:39 - 00:26:07:46
Wade
oh. What a great dinner time conversation. So, honey.
00:26:07:59 - 00:26:14:42
Evan
what if, what you've been playing your Sims game? you tell me about what you're doing. well, I'm a death dealer.
00:26:14:50 - 00:26:18:44
Wade
Yeah. Why did you kill your husband in the game, sweetie? Like, why did you.
00:26:18:44 - 00:26:21:56
Evan
Take all the doors out of the room and make them suffer?
00:26:22:05 - 00:26:25:11
Wade
Why did you do that to our newborn self?
00:26:25:16 - 00:26:32:42
Evan
I mean. You talked earlier. Like, right off the bat. We were talking about the Sims. You talked about putting them in a.
00:26:32:42 - 00:26:33:28
Wade
Pool or.
00:26:33:33 - 00:26:34:29
Evan
Eating the ladder.
00:26:34:29 - 00:26:41:29
Wade
It's a can, an experience. It's fundamental to development to put people in a pool and take away the ladder.
00:26:41:33 - 00:26:46:47
Evan
We are all twisted, individual, twisted that.
00:26:46:52 - 00:26:49:00
Wade
People brokenness of human.
00:26:49:05 - 00:26:52:20
Evan
That is it. It. But it's a thread that binds.
00:26:52:21 - 00:26:54:06
Wade
It is it is.
00:26:54:18 - 00:27:13:14
Evan
Hey, everyone, welcome to the mini game Stretch Break. This is the part in the middle of the show where we and you hopefully take a little bit of a stretch break, and we stretch our bodies and our minds a little bit. So this is a segment where we just do some kind of like chat and, get to know each other a little bit more.
00:27:13:14 - 00:27:19:45
Evan
So enjoy. So let's just Google stretching this. I look like I'm being robbed that stretch.
00:27:19:50 - 00:27:30:26
Wade
I'm so tight right now. oh my gosh, that is a good stretch.
00:27:30:31 - 00:27:35:08
Evan
And I just realized before we get into this, you got to hit the music.
00:27:35:13 - 00:27:43:34
Wade
The music. Two. Three four. Bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam.
00:27:43:39 - 00:27:58:25
Evan
Ladies and gentlemen. Hey. So, could you name the, the title of the artist for the song Madonna? Madonna? There we go. That is the whole disaster theme brought to you by Madonna, right?
00:27:58:30 - 00:28:09:43
Wade
That's in Final Fantasy seven remake, part three. The Gold Saucer theme will be performed by Madonna. You've heard it your first.
00:28:09:47 - 00:28:38:03
Evan
It's perfect. Okay. So this week, and probably for many weeks for our mini game Stretch Break, where we stretch our minds, we have. The bingo wheel of vulnerability. For those of you who are listening, you can't see this. It is a bingo wheel filled with bingo numbers numbered one through 50. So, what's going to happen here is I'm going to spin this wheel.
00:28:38:08 - 00:28:59:47
Evan
Wade has a question, and he's going to ask that question, and we're just going to chat about it as we get, vulnerable with one another. The big wheel of vulnerability. It makes an awful, wretched sound when I spin it. But I think we should each guest a number and, listener watcher, I would encourage viewer watcher. Sounds a way creepier viewer.
00:28:59:52 - 00:29:01:13
Wade
Oh, I don't like that viewer.
00:29:01:17 - 00:29:06:31
Evan
Viewer, viewer doesn't. Number one 350. So, wait, what's your number?
00:29:06:36 - 00:29:11:46
Wade
My number? 2736.
00:29:11:51 - 00:29:15:53
Evan
Tell me when.
00:29:15:58 - 00:29:18:58
Wade
When?
00:29:19:03 - 00:29:20:53
Evan
It didn't grab it. Grab one.
00:29:21:02 - 00:29:22:07
Wade
When.
00:29:22:12 - 00:29:24:14
Evan
You got it. Baby's first bingo wheel.
00:29:24:14 - 00:29:28:04
Wade
This is like the parmesan. People at Olive garden.
00:29:28:08 - 00:29:33:40
Evan
tell me when. Tell me when the number is nine.
00:29:33:45 - 00:29:37:31
Wade
Well, that's. I mean, they're my closest. I am closest, you guessed in 30s.
00:29:37:41 - 00:29:51:41
Evan
It's not about close. It's not about getting it exactly right. It only matters if you get it exactly right. Now. You're competitive. See you two closest if you want. Nine was the number. So viewer listener. If you guessed nine, you win. Hit us with the question number nine.
00:29:51:41 - 00:30:17:08
Wade
So here's the thing. Here's the key. Our questions are coming from our good friends over at Geek Therapy who have, created a geek therapy card deck for clients and therapists. Really great resource. So we count nine off the top of the deck. There's one, two three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. And that is.
00:30:17:08 - 00:30:19:32
Evan
Why did it take so long to get from 1 to 2?
00:30:19:46 - 00:30:23:12
Wade
Because they're in the box and I'm slow.
00:30:23:17 - 00:30:25:11
Evan
They were there. They were still in the back.
00:30:25:16 - 00:30:51:20
Wade
Box that I was not ready for them. I love it, so I love it. Here's the question, everybody. checkpoints or locations within a game at which a player can save their progress, they act as a place to resume our progress in times of need and create a stable base to restart from. When was your last checkpoint in life?
00:30:51:25 - 00:31:00:18
Wade
Where is the safe point you go to when needing a reset? And how do you recharge yourself when you are drained from life's battles?
00:31:00:20 - 00:31:04:14
Evan
Oh, I officially don't like this segment. The first one.
00:31:04:19 - 00:31:08:28
Wade
This is not good. I.
00:31:08:33 - 00:31:11:02
Evan
Checkpoint go to in line.
00:31:11:02 - 00:31:22:42
Wade
What was your last checkpoint? Where where is a save point you go to when you need a rest? And how do you recharge yourself when you're drained from life's battles? This is pretty good, to be honest.
00:31:22:42 - 00:31:25:07
Evan
I think I'm ready for part of my.
00:31:25:14 - 00:31:28:41
Wade
Okay, well, why don't you kick us off?
00:31:28:46 - 00:31:53:44
Evan
It's social for me. It's. It's friends and family. It's getting together, going out for a meal, hanging out, throwing a party, and, like, connecting back with everybody, listening and asking questions about where other people are in life, getting asked that question. I think it's just very externalized for me as an extrovert, I like to recharge when I'm with other people.
00:31:53:44 - 00:32:10:59
Evan
So if I'm hanging out with people that I feel are safe to have those conversations with, then that is a huge checkpoint for me because it kind of memorialized as that moment gets it out of my head, more so even than like journaling or writing things down, because then it means that somebody is going to be checking in on me.
00:32:10:59 - 00:32:16:27
Evan
So I think for me, that's probably social. And I got to do that this weekend. I had a wedding. It was awesome.
00:32:16:32 - 00:32:22:36
Wade
Oh, that's so that was your your last checkpoint. So do you feel like super fulfilled right now? Like you're feeling.
00:32:22:41 - 00:32:31:41
Evan
Yeah I do, I do. I just goofing off and hanging out with friends and then having kind of safe space to just kind of catch up and discuss life at the same time was awesome.
00:32:31:46 - 00:32:33:52
Wade
Nice, nice. so.
00:32:33:52 - 00:32:34:16
Evan
How about you?
00:32:34:26 - 00:32:59:26
Wade
Yeah. For me, I find being alone or in really small groups and outside is, is kind of a thing for me. So like one stable checkpoint place location, and in my mind, I'm. Because I'm playing Baldur's Gate three right now, I think about campground like I have to go to camp, base camp or whatever. What is my base camp?
00:32:59:31 - 00:33:22:02
Wade
there's a place. There's a river near the university that I work at that I just always go to, and I like, sit and I may journal. I may listen to, you know, music, walk the dogs or something like that. That is such a great place for me. I haven't been there in a long time. but now that summer, you know, probably time for me to go back and just kind of be and rest.
00:33:22:07 - 00:33:46:08
Wade
But the last time I did something like this was a couple weeks ago. I went to some, Native American burial mounds, and, like, it was just so refreshing. I was learning something. I was I was out in nature. I was on, on these walks. And it was like, oh my gosh, like, life is returning, to me after being drained from a lot of life's battles, especially at the end of the semester.
00:33:46:08 - 00:33:48:14
Wade
That's what it feels like in my rhythm.
00:33:48:14 - 00:34:01:45
Evan
I guess that is awesome. I remember going to that Riverwalk at one point and I was just walking the dogs, and then you are just trucking down the sidewalk. I just punched the bingo wheel of vulnerability.
00:34:01:50 - 00:34:02:50
Wade
Don't touch.
00:34:02:55 - 00:34:07:14
Evan
It's so vulnerable, buddy. I'm sorry. It needs some kind of face or something like that.
00:34:07:19 - 00:34:09:55
Wade
Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:09:59 - 00:34:17:55
Evan
or like I have to anthropomorphize everything. And you were just covered in sweat. Right. And I was like hey wait. And you were like, I.
00:34:18:00 - 00:34:21:54
Wade
I did to, to my credit, I don't even remember that I guess like I.
00:34:22:07 - 00:34:39:01
Evan
Yeah, well you were in I was dying from just hauling it down this river. Like, which was good. So listener, viewer, ask somebody else in your life, ask yourself that question. What's that checkpoint for? You? Think about it. Get it out of your own head. Talk about it. Let somebody in today. You know.
00:34:39:05 - 00:34:40:52
Wade
What's good.
00:34:40:57 - 00:34:41:42
Evan
See you on the next one.
00:34:41:49 - 00:34:44:30
Wade
Do we feel stretched? I feel stretched.
00:34:44:35 - 00:34:49:31
Evan
I've got to get one more.
00:34:49:35 - 00:34:54:10
Wade
Yeah. Now, now just back to work.
00:34:54:14 - 00:34:55:57
Evan
Back to our next segment.
00:34:55:57 - 00:35:08:25
Evan
Okay, we are in to our next segment where we are talking about fantasy to reality. This is where we take things that we experience in games and in media or in play.
00:35:08:38 - 00:35:24:16
Evan
And we take them from the screen and the page and we let them become real in our lives. So fantasy to reality, so fantasy to reality. Wait, what have you been thinking about while you've been playing games recently.
00:35:24:21 - 00:35:27:02
Wade
Man, I've been thinking about relationships.
00:35:27:06 - 00:35:32:27
Evan
Oh, okay. Relationships do tell more romance.
00:35:32:27 - 00:35:38:06
Wade
Friendship, any kind of relationship. That's what I've been thinking about at every juncture of gaming right now.
00:35:38:11 - 00:35:43:20
Evan
Okay. What have you been playing that has you thinking about relationships?
00:35:43:20 - 00:36:06:42
Wade
It's really just one game because I've spent 175 plus hours and Final Fantasy seven rebirth, and around our 158 There is a culmination of relational dynamics, and I'm a little ticked about it because I spend 158 hours believing that I was courting one person, when in fact I was courting another.
00:36:06:47 - 00:36:28:57
Evan
Okay, so, little misalignment of energy there. that said that, you know, real life doesn't give you like a quantified number of hours you've invested in trying to do something that you don't have that tracker. So games can be insulting in that way. Right? When you you can it'll tell you how much time you spent on something to get the outcome that you didn't want.
00:36:29:02 - 00:36:52:08
Wade
When you say that, yeah, like life doesn't give you like a menu screen that says, here is your affinity with all of these people. but what it's gotten me thinking about is actually a model, that does kind of quantify relationships a little bit. And I'm trying to answer, where did I go wrong with the relationships and Final Fantasy seven for you?
00:36:52:13 - 00:37:01:20
Evan
Okay, so it sounds like you're talking about something that is going to give us essentially like a menu screen for affinity for our real life relationships.
00:37:01:31 - 00:37:03:45
Wade
You know what? It kind of is like that.
00:37:03:50 - 00:37:04:40
Evan
I see it.
00:37:04:42 - 00:37:08:45
Wade
Like we could press the pause button, be like, what is my menu screen? But I'm going to give that to you today.
00:37:08:45 - 00:37:16:06
Evan
Yes. Oh, okay, I love it I love it. So, what is it called and what made you become aware of it first in your life?
00:37:16:11 - 00:37:34:18
Wade
Okay, so it's called the relational attachment model. And it, is a model for safeguards. And, just kind of helpful blueprints in healthy bonding relationships put forth by a clinical counselor named John Bennett. Yep. Okay. In about 2008, I think.
00:37:34:18 - 00:37:35:13
Evan
Shut up.
00:37:35:18 - 00:37:49:33
Wade
Shout out. Yeah. and this is a model that essentially is five categories or components that when tapped into, develop naturally stronger relationships.
00:37:49:38 - 00:38:04:06
Evan
Okay. Let's talk about where this was helpful for you in your life. And before we explain what the model is because I want to know, you know why. What's the why here. Where did this come into play for you personally? First?
00:38:04:06 - 00:38:18:23
Wade
Evan, I work with students for like 18 to 22 year olds who, they come in with bright eyes and excited futures because they are freshmen in. One of the things that they're excited about is love.
00:38:18:28 - 00:38:19:26
Evan
But love.
00:38:19:26 - 00:38:29:53
Wade
And freedom. It's easier for love and freedom is a recipe for disaster, especially when we throw them into dorms and we're just like, go and make a life.
00:38:29:57 - 00:38:36:31
Evan
Okay, so the desire to experience love and the inability to process that at the same time. And so if.
00:38:36:39 - 00:38:56:56
Wade
They come to my office and they're like, Wade, I'm in love, or Wade, I've ruined my life because of love. And it's like, okay, so what are the models? And so that's when I got to research and I got into trying to figure out what are some, some, some experts in the area that might be helpful for this sort of dynamic.
00:38:56:56 - 00:39:09:05
Wade
And that's how I discovered the relational attachment model. And to me, it's the simplest, easiest way to better friendships, family relationships, and maybe most importantly, intimate romantic relationships.
00:39:09:10 - 00:39:21:14
Evan
Okay, you mentioned something to me about how it helped you to process why you felt or didn't feel shame at one point. Yeah, I wonder if you could talk just a little bit about that and then we can get into the model.
00:39:21:15 - 00:39:48:15
Wade
Yeah. Let me let me say this. so I say it kind of jokingly, but the reality is, is that people who have been in any kind of relationship, and especially relationships that do not work out, there is a reckoning with the shame and the guilt and the regret that inherently comes in relationships that were misunderstood or miscommunicated or misaligned, whatever it is.
00:39:48:15 - 00:39:49:01
Evan
Okay?
00:39:49:06 - 00:39:57:03
Wade
And so this is a tool that helps us mitigate shame, regret it. And, that, that sense of of guilt.
00:39:57:08 - 00:40:13:18
Evan
I love it. Okay. Well, let's push pause. Let's bring up the pause menu and let's try to understand the systems. I don't know about you. I get really intimidated by really expansive like skill trees and things like that. Like I open it up and I like, yeah, I don't I it's like, it's overwhelming. I don't know what to do.
00:40:13:18 - 00:40:27:57
Evan
So we're going to try and break this down in a way that is not intimidating and that we can kind of communicate to you. So if you're that kind of person, when you open up that skill tree and you get a little bit intimidated by dynamic concepts like that, listen, we're here, we're with you, we're going to figure it out.
00:40:27:57 - 00:40:36:09
Evan
And if you're the kind of person who just loves to dig into every minutiae of the skill tree, you were going to love this. Yeah, because it is going to be like that for your life.
00:40:36:14 - 00:40:59:27
Wade
Let me say this. Let me say this. This is this is a model that says essentially that relationships are not open world games. They are linear games, okay? Healthy relationships are linear, but messy relationships are open world. Anything goes. You're going all over the place, okay? Like so there's there's a sequence to it is what this model says okay.
00:40:59:29 - 00:41:13:13
Evan
All right. I won't try and dig too much into like the oversimplification of it. Right. but so stick with this here. Let's talk about what are these five. What are they, are they stages? Are they steps? Are they you give me a term here.
00:41:13:20 - 00:41:24:59
Wade
Sure. I think that they're essentially just categories. but they are stages in in those categories though, they don't necessarily have to go in proper exact sequence.
00:41:25:04 - 00:41:26:50
Evan
So they are somewhat sequential.
00:41:26:59 - 00:41:29:29
Wade
They are somewhat sequential. Yeah. so the first.
00:41:29:29 - 00:41:32:13
Evan
One is going to build into the second one. Yeah. Okay.
00:41:32:18 - 00:41:53:41
Wade
Yeah. And so for example the first one is the knowledge of someone, to know someone else. and to the extent that, you know someone else, you move into the second category, which is to trust someone else. And to the extent that that second category is attained, you're able to move to the third category, which is rely on someone else.
00:41:53:41 - 00:42:02:51
Wade
So on and so forth, to commit and then ultimately to be able to have physical proximity and even romantic, intimate touch with someone else.
00:42:02:56 - 00:42:09:38
Evan
Okay, so let's break this down absolutely slowly, one at a time. Number one is no.
00:42:09:42 - 00:42:14:31
Wade
Yes. The first category or stage is to know someone.
00:42:14:36 - 00:42:23:20
Evan
Number two is trust. Trust. Yes. Number three is rely. Rely. Number four is commit.
00:42:23:34 - 00:42:24:23
Wade
Yep.
00:42:24:28 - 00:42:27:59
Evan
And number five is touch. Yes.
00:42:28:04 - 00:42:56:00
Wade
And the idea behind this is that each one is a safeguard. Shame, guilt and regret begin to come in to our relationships when we act prematurely. So for instance, if I've just met someone and I say to them, hey, here's the keys to my house. I'm leaving town this weekend. Watch my dogs, would you? That is in appropriate and like I would not do that.
00:42:56:14 - 00:43:11:40
Wade
Okay, but why would I not do that? Well, because I don't really know them. And to the extent that I know them, I really don't trust them. And yet I'm going to rely on them. That is a recipe for disaster. And this happens in all of our relationships. At some point.
00:43:11:45 - 00:43:31:04
Evan
So this sounds like a really powerful tool that can help us really understand relationships. I wonder if you can relate it back to your experience in rebirth, and kind of talk us through maybe how the model applied to the situation that you found yourself in and how it relates to those stories.
00:43:31:04 - 00:43:59:09
Wade
Yeah, so rebirth has a pretty robust affinity system and it is rooted in some of this stuff. Now everybody wants to jump to the intimate moment right in in okay. Spoiler for the game a little bit. it's not a huge spoiler if you've played the original game, but there is an affinity dating system that happens at the end of the game where you get to go on a particular, maybe romantic, but just a little bit more interpersonal relationship.
00:43:59:14 - 00:44:21:23
Wade
event. This is built on a number of mechanics, number one side quest completion and the quality of side quest completion. How many times is this party member been in your party? what were the dialog choices? All that kind of stuff. And so it's built on a very rudimentary understanding of how well do you know this character?
00:44:21:23 - 00:44:28:33
Wade
How much should this character trust you? Have they been able to rely on you, and are you committed to them being in your party? Right.
00:44:28:44 - 00:44:31:49
Evan
Okay. I'm hearing the model come to hearing the melody. You're explaining it.
00:44:31:49 - 00:44:35:05
Wade
So you look at you look through that lens. I think.
00:44:35:12 - 00:44:36:12
Evan
To see these.
00:44:36:12 - 00:44:48:35
Wade
Characters interacting with one another. now, I had a mismatch because I thought that I had put all of my knowledge, trust, reliance, commitment points into one character, when in.
00:44:48:35 - 00:44:49:56
Evan
Fact I checked.
00:44:49:56 - 00:45:10:02
Wade
The stats at the end of the game. This particular character had the lowest affinity. Now all the. That's because I'm a little bit of a completionist. So on a scale of 100, this person had a 92 out of 100. The highest that I had was a 96. And there are like five different options in the game.
00:45:10:14 - 00:45:11:21
Evan
It was a versus an eight.
00:45:11:36 - 00:45:17:16
Wade
It was eight versus an eight plus. So it wasn't like I rejected this person. I actually chose this person very well.
00:45:17:16 - 00:45:19:53
Evan
But we were just not relative to.
00:45:19:54 - 00:45:24:26
Wade
Not relative to literally everyone else. I just I live to make everybody happy.
00:45:24:26 - 00:45:28:26
Evan
That's for mediocrity. It's not who you are.
00:45:28:31 - 00:45:32:31
Wade
It's not who I am. I'm excellent with all so.
00:45:32:36 - 00:45:34:39
Evan
Okay. So yeah, that that's.
00:45:34:44 - 00:45:35:11
Wade
Sort of it.
00:45:35:11 - 00:45:59:18
Evan
With rebirth. So this is present in the story in the way that you're developing. Yeah. I wonder, are there other games that you think will illustrate these, like steps in order and you showed me and talked about how they have like a scale or a slider. Can you tell me a little bit about how, like the filling up of one would relate to the capacity of another?
00:45:59:18 - 00:46:00:59
Evan
Are they connected in any way?
00:46:01:02 - 00:46:24:51
Wade
That's exactly how they're connected. And so in category one, to know someone that is setting the capacity for the level of comfort that you will have in trusting someone into the level that you trust someone you're able to rely on someone and to the level that you rely on someone. You're able to commit to someone and then ultimately to the level that you commit to someone, you see them in your life.
00:46:24:57 - 00:46:47:23
Wade
There is a comfort level in the physical ity that you may have with someone else, the touch component and the way that this happens, it's not always just chiefly romantic touch. I think that it can be misused in in saying that this is all about intimate touch and all that kind of stuff. Think of it like this. There are people that maybe you've been on teams with before that you didn't know very well.
00:46:47:23 - 00:47:04:31
Wade
They would come up to you and like give you a pat on the back or like punch you in the arm playfully or something like that. And it's like, whoa, do we know each other that well? And then there are other people that are on the team that you have some rapport with, and they don't. It doesn't matter if they, like, come up behind you and bear hug you.
00:47:04:31 - 00:47:26:39
Wade
That feels familiar and comfortable. Well, this gives you a blueprint for answering why some of that touch feels comfortable versus uncomfortable. And this is the key ingredient for that. That element of shame, regret and guilt that we sometimes talk about. Why did that make me feel uncomfortable and weird? and not just with touch, but even with conversations.
00:47:26:39 - 00:47:37:39
Wade
Sometimes we will bring up topics that the relational capacity that we have for one another isn't able to hold, and therefore it creates some disruption and discomfort in our relationships.
00:47:37:44 - 00:48:01:15
Evan
Okay, so that makes sense that I can't possibly rely on you more than I can trust you. Yeah, right. So that trust builds the framework for how much you can rely on someone, how much you can rely on someone, builds a framework for how much you can commit to them and commit to the relationship. And when there's misalignment, there, that's where we experience disruption and pain and hurt and sometimes regret.
00:48:01:20 - 00:48:03:07
Evan
Yeah, okay.
00:48:03:12 - 00:48:14:09
Wade
That's that's what we see in really well told video game stories. This progression through these stages that make a relationship believable.
00:48:14:14 - 00:48:15:20
Evan
For example.
00:48:15:24 - 00:48:24:34
Wade
for example, I think that one of the classic examples of this is The Last of Us part one, and there are going to be major spoilers for this, but just some basic story pieces.
00:48:24:39 - 00:48:43:12
Evan
Okay. Time out. We got to talk about spoilers, because if we're going to try and have these conversations and think a little deeper and elevate our play and springboard ourselves into the life that we want, we're going to have to talk in some detail about what happens in games. So I have a proposal for you and we'll just workshop it.
00:48:43:17 - 00:48:44:24
Wade
Okay?
00:48:44:29 - 00:49:08:23
Evan
I think there needs to be a point where we declare that something has passed. It's like statute of limitations on spoilers. Okay. If it is old enough, if it is is in popular enough media, whatever it is we maybe need to put just for us our stamp on this one. Do it. And then in other ways we'll say, hey, if you haven't played this, it's not past.
00:49:08:23 - 00:49:30:16
Evan
It's what we would determine at the point of conversation. It's statute of spoiler limitations. Therefore, this is your spoiler warning. Yeah, skip ahead and maybe I'll even figure out a system that we could, like, let people know. But I would say Last of Us part one. It's been long enough, and there's a major HBO show that covers what happens in it.
00:49:30:21 - 00:49:35:03
Evan
Statute of limitations. It's Our Last of Us part one. It's not, it's not.
00:49:35:14 - 00:49:55:31
Wade
We're not even spoiling it. But it's important to know that. So I mean, okay, so back to The Last of Us part one. The basic premise is you've got Joel, who is leading Ellie, a young girl, to across country and through the course of this, he finds in her the daughter that he lost. And she.
00:49:55:33 - 00:49:58:20
Evan
And they meet for the first time at the beginning of the.
00:49:58:20 - 00:50:23:02
Wade
Beginning of the game, and he has lost his daughter and years prior. And so there's this void in his life. She also is, at this point orphaned. And so there's this mutual need of relationship. But here's what I love about the the relational dynamic of this game. It's not romantic like this, relational attachment model sometimes leans into, but it perfectly follows it.
00:50:23:07 - 00:50:42:51
Wade
Okay, so for example, in the beginning, they don't know each other at all. Got it? Joel has no interest in trusting Ellie, relying on her, committing to her, and they are very cold in physical proximity to one another. he even sleeps with his back turned to her. I mean, the whole deal when they're in the same room and it's just like they are not on the same page at all.
00:50:42:51 - 00:50:51:26
Wade
And same with Ellie. Over the course of the narrative, they warm up in every category. And you know what I'm talking about.
00:50:51:37 - 00:51:07:15
Evan
Yeah. And I love that their physical circumstances, while they travel together change as the relationship changes. I think that really helps with this storytelling because the setting physically changes their location. They're traveling together physically while they're traveling together in, like building their really.
00:51:07:15 - 00:51:30:15
Wade
Subtle narrative cue. I mean, at the beginning of the game, they are not walking side by side. Joel out of Ellie the whole time he is leading her. He is not interested in building relationship with her at all. And then by the end they're jovial. They're walking side by side. She's scampering up and about and all around and all that kind of stuff, and it's just like there's a comfort level and this is so beautifully displayed.
00:51:30:15 - 00:51:56:14
Wade
Naughty dog does this so dadgum, well, but this game is is a wonderful example of proper relationship. And anytime this is also key, any time Ellie tries to push ahead to a level of commitment or reliance that Joel is not reciprocal on, it creates some some tension, some relational and narrative dynamic that is like, oh gosh, this doesn't feel right.
00:51:56:14 - 00:52:09:07
Wade
Something's mismatched here. And Ellie kind of shrinks into herself, or Joel shrinks into himself because it's like they both want to have this mutual commitment and reliance, but they're not really ready for it yet.
00:52:09:12 - 00:52:38:30
Evan
Okay, let's take that concept and let's make it a little more real to us. So in the game, we get to observe some almost like social elasticity between Ellie and Joel, where there's some give and take and sometimes things get misaligned. Right. They're misunderstood. Good. Or they're miscommunicated or they're misconstrued on a subject or a situation. I think you said that you found that in rebirth as well, right?
00:52:38:30 - 00:52:47:19
Evan
And trying to find the right words to produce the correct outcomes. Yeah. That was, it's, I would say not correct desired outcome for you. Right.
00:52:47:21 - 00:52:48:12
Wade
The desire you.
00:52:48:12 - 00:53:06:48
Evan
Found that there was some like misalignment there and your expectation with what you were actually producing. So in our own lives, how do we handle that? How do you handle that kind of like understanding of miscommunication and how it exists and why our game's helpful for.
00:53:06:48 - 00:53:36:16
Wade
Processing in the same way that I kind of process my interactions in rebirth, or even in The Last of Us, where there's not a lot of agency, but there is some, this is the way that we kind of process those moments in our own lives that have brought about shame, guilt, and regret. Can I replay that? Why did that that, conversation option or the thing that I said leave me with a sense of regret, and these are the things that we replay, in our minds years later.
00:53:36:21 - 00:53:57:52
Wade
I mean, every one of us probably has. Man, I still remember that stupid thing that I said when I was in third grade. Well, why why did that make us feel that way? and for me, I can pinpoint. Okay, I was, I was acting and speaking in reliance for someone that I didn't really know, or I was committing to somebody that I didn't really trust.
00:53:57:57 - 00:54:08:26
Wade
and that's that was a whole it's amazing to process your life through this kind of model in the same way we would games like this.
00:54:08:30 - 00:54:29:43
Evan
Okay. You you talked about using the misalignment in the relationship model to help you understand why you felt a certain way. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about that dynamic where you said something happened in the way, and then you realized that you committed to someone more than you could rely on them, and that was part of that dynamic.
00:54:29:43 - 00:54:41:29
Evan
Can you just explain that interconnection between those two, like when you feel something, how are you backing into this model to use this to help you understand when you can push that past life?
00:54:41:34 - 00:55:06:21
Wade
Well, I think that what it does is it it shows me the root of. Of the problem, of that shame that, that guilt or whatever it is that I'm feeling, that regret. And what it does is it helps me reset, reframe, and reorder the narrative instead of saying, oh, I'm such an idiot, or I'm so bad at relationship.
00:55:06:26 - 00:55:27:43
Wade
Well, it's not that. It's simply that I got out of whack with this system in this sequencing, and that is the result. When you get out of this sequence, if that makes sense. It's a it's a way of framing the self-talk. You're not bad at relationships. You just got out of sequence.
00:55:27:48 - 00:55:52:45
Evan
so as you're talking about developing these relationships or what, when you see them in games helps you to identi define the things in the model and then practice in that safe space, because that's what it sounds like you're saying, is that the game can create kind of a laboratory or a sandbox for you to be able to try different things, or gives you a safe place to process what's happening with them.
00:55:53:00 - 00:55:55:24
Evan
How do you take that from the screen and make it real for you?
00:55:55:26 - 00:56:17:29
Wade
Yeah. And so usually in in games that offer dialog options, you're going to have like the positive, the neutral and the negative, response. And it's interesting to me as a researcher to just kind of play with all three of those, and to say, okay, I'm going to be a jerk in this playthrough. Why do that thing that I say affect this person this way?
00:56:17:29 - 00:56:38:54
Wade
Or, what was it? because sometimes, as was my case in rebirth, by the way, I would choose a dialog option thinking I'm charming here. I'm I'm wooing this person and they would not reciprocate at all. And it's like, oh, that was a one sided sort of thing for me. As cloud. I didn't realize that wasn't the nature of this dynamics.
00:56:38:59 - 00:56:41:02
Wade
it's just an interesting thing to process, I think.
00:56:41:16 - 00:57:01:16
Evan
Talk more about this idea that it was reciprocated because we're talking about, yeah, pushing the pause menu in the affinity system, as you perceive. Oh boy. But, you know, because these are characters that exist in you're the player and you're in control. But in our lives when we're looking to apply this, everyone else is also doing this. Yeah.
00:57:01:18 - 00:57:10:03
Evan
Whether they're aware of it or not. So how do you handle the idea that your perception isn't always true? And this is potentially a reciprocal process?
00:57:10:04 - 00:57:22:35
Wade
Well, similar to what I said earlier, relationship is not an open world game. It is a linear, sequential sort of thing according to this model. In the same way, it's not a single player game, it's multiplayer.
00:57:22:40 - 00:57:25:24
Evan
It's this is about healthy relationships, right?
00:57:25:24 - 00:57:26:25
Wade
Like building your healthy.
00:57:26:25 - 00:57:27:50
Evan
Relationships, right? Okay.
00:57:27:55 - 00:57:48:56
Wade
It is multiplayer, meaning you can only control what you can control. You can't control somebody else's feelings and emotions. And while I believe that other people can change, I fundamentally do not believe that people can change people. Therefore their opinions of you in relationship or that's not on you, that's on them.
00:57:49:00 - 00:58:00:28
Evan
Wow. Okay. We're going to have to unpack that and other episode. Yeah, probably that you really that statement was very bold and you really got me thinking. But not on this one. Yeah. Stay tuned for that.
00:58:00:28 - 00:58:11:18
Wade
All that to say, relationships are inherently risky because they are out of our control. That, I mean, 50% of it is is on you. But the other is unknown, right?
00:58:11:23 - 00:58:37:06
Evan
So if communication is the vehicle that we experience relationships right. Both verbal, nonverbal, experiential, whatever. Let's talk just a little bit about communications and some of the basics of them. As well as how we could, experience them in a game and we could practice, because I think the thing that becomes interesting to me is that you're presented with dialog choice, right?
00:58:37:06 - 00:58:56:56
Evan
And you're typically not on a timer to respond. Now, a game like Mass Effect does give you kind of a timer, right? So sometimes you are, but you get to stop, right? You're pausing, you read the different options. You think about it. That's not how communication typically works for us as humans. It's typically more instantaneous. Sometimes we have this presence of mind that we're really thoughtful.
00:58:56:56 - 00:59:16:31
Evan
We think about the things that we could say, but also if you just space out for 45 seconds, like you're staring at a dial up menu when you're talking to somebody that's not a very engaging conversation dynamic. So we tend to feel the need to respond promptly. But when we talk about miscommunications, communications 101 kind of tells us, ask this question.
00:59:16:31 - 00:59:45:35
Evan
And I think it's a question I want to pose to you. And like if you're listening, they say, who determines the message, the sender of the message or the receiver absence. Like who determines the meaning of a message? And I think when we look at this relational attachment model, if communication is the vehicle that moves us from knowledge to trust and from trust to reliance, from alliance to commitment, and from commitment to touch and intimacy, then we need to determine who it is.
00:59:45:35 - 01:00:02:56
Evan
And so you probably have your answer in your head, but it's a really fun thing to discuss in these classes, because you have a lot of different takes. You have people who say, no sender definitely determines the meaning of communication, because how I meant to say it is really all that matters. But you get down to it. Really.
01:00:02:56 - 01:00:23:11
Evan
Only the receiver of a communication determines the message. Yeah, but that's it. So when we think of it in that terms, and then you overlay this relational attachment model happening in multiple ways at the same time, you can kind of understand how we can get into some interesting situations in relationships, and why healthy relationships require a lot of intentionality.
01:00:23:12 - 01:00:43:35
Wade
Well, yeah. Yeah. But again, intentionality is again one sided, right? Because the recipient does mean the outcome or the message or the worth of the message. And so what is my grandmother used to tell me that, the, the, pathway to hell was paved with good intentions.
01:00:43:40 - 01:00:44:51
Evan
Yeah. I mean.
01:00:44:56 - 01:00:56:25
Wade
I mean, it's it's a it's a maxim for a reason, you know, and our good intentions can only go so far. How is the message really being received? And again, relationship is is a two way street.
01:00:56:30 - 01:01:15:16
Evan
It's okay. So hyper practical. Yep. Somebody wants to try and use this relational attachment model to understand something about their lives. Whether it's a video game they're playing or a relationship that they have. Where do we start? What's a good first step to using the relational attachment model and trying to understand it?
01:01:15:21 - 01:01:49:48
Wade
Number one, just notice. Notice it in games and notice it in your life. It's safe in games because it's personal. And this gives you some training to be able to see it. before you start to integrate it. so I try to say that to students from an objective side of things. You can judge Cloud and Aerith and Tifa in their relationship in a way that isn't so personal to you, and therefore you're not okay dealing with the guilt, shame, and regret or whatever, but then begin to notice it in safe ways in your own relationships.
01:01:49:53 - 01:02:17:29
Wade
think about it in terms of conversations. In conversations where somebody jumps to something a little bit more personal than you feel comfortable. This happens all the time in classrooms, right? And we've all been in places where somebody has elevated the level of vulnerability in the room by maybe doing by means, maybe speaking something personal, maybe it's prematurely, or maybe it is right on target, whatever.
01:02:17:29 - 01:02:29:49
Wade
That's the the recipient's, kind of job to, to process that, you know. But does that make sense? This idea of notice the places where even conversation gets out of whack.
01:02:29:54 - 01:02:49:17
Evan
So it seems like whenever you feel like something might be misaligned or doesn't feel right, it's a this is a great model to turn to go through the steps and see maybe where on what stage that felt misaligned, and it might give you some common language and a way to kind of quantify and judge what those things are.
01:02:49:17 - 01:03:05:00
Evan
So when you feel something strange or you feel misalignment in like relationships or dynamics, whether you're seeing it in a story or whether it's happening in your life, turn to the relational attachment model and try and see maybe take a guess at where that mismanagement or that mismatch might be.
01:03:05:12 - 01:03:28:06
Wade
Oh, that's that's exactly. And that's the word that I like to use misalignment. because sometimes it's not as deep as regret or guilt or shame. Sometimes it is. And that's, that's a next level of misalignment. But any kind of misalignment is like, okay, what was breached here? This person said something deeply reliant. And I don't even know this person, okay.
01:03:28:11 - 01:03:37:05
Wade
This person is acting like we're committing for the rest of our lives. And I do not trust them. That misalignment is real. You know? Yeah.
01:03:37:09 - 01:03:53:11
Evan
Okay. And misalignment is nice because it doesn't, inherently apply fault, you know. No, no, no. Right. Like it's just to say this is a mismatch I love that I love that okay. Well, anything else that you would want people to know. Well, we kind of wind down. And because I think that is a that's a great practical.
01:03:53:11 - 01:04:11:30
Evan
So I think the conversation has been great. I certainly learned a lot. I know that's a tough concept. You did a great job explaining it to us and then illustrating it. The question that we all know and layer and so oh, wow, you're too kind. You're too kind. So everybody that's been fantasy to reality and, we hope that you've enjoyed it and we know that you have what?
01:04:11:35 - 01:04:19:27
Evan
Prof. Thanks for the conversation and looking forward to the next one. Good luck on your healthy relationship pursuits. Everyone.
01:04:19:27 - 01:04:34:11
Evan
Okay. Welcome to our Games Before Games segment. Now I think we need to spell that out a little bit for the listeners and the viewers. But wait, tell us a little bit about where this segment comes from. And we'll kind of go from there.
01:04:34:16 - 01:04:58:15
Wade
Yeah. games for games is all about feeding your real life before you feed your gaming life. And so one of the things that I talk about on stream in my classroom and even implement into my own life is how am I bettering myself as a person, getting those experience points, getting those personal level up experiences before I go in and do similar things in my game life.
01:04:58:16 - 01:05:15:02
Wade
And this is going to include everything from physical to mental and emotional and even spiritual. And I think that all of this helps us have a more holistic experience of life. And then a free or guilt free way of, enjoying our games.
01:05:15:07 - 01:05:31:43
Evan
Love it. So as we debrief today's episode, our domain of the week is the physical domain that we're going to be talking about. So what from our conversations, this episode has you thinking about a challenge or kind of a take away in that physical domain.
01:05:31:48 - 01:05:57:55
Wade
Then it's pretty outside where I live. You know, I'm in the South. I'm in Alabama, southern, southern part of the United States. And, because it's warming up, I just want to be outside. And so, typically I would go to the gym, but, like, now I'm really just wanting to go out and run, and so I'm kind of taking it on myself to, run or move at least one mile, every single day.
01:05:57:59 - 01:06:02:01
Wade
maybe more than that, but at least one every single day.
01:06:02:06 - 01:06:23:49
Evan
Okay. You're going to try and run or move one mile every day. I think for me, the takeaway and the physical is connecting back to two parts of the episode. One is the mini game Stretch Break, where we talked about how you like recharge in those checkpoints for you. And I talked about how that was something that was good for, like me for friendships and things like that.
01:06:23:58 - 01:06:44:01
Evan
And the other one was the healthy relationships. And I think, combining that physical, getting outside, with, some close friends or family, maybe even like taking a walk with the dogs is a big takeaway for me. And then having some intentional conversations about those checkpoints and about some of that, like relational attachment model that we talked about a little bit.
01:06:44:01 - 01:07:00:26
Evan
I think just sharing about some things from the show, that kind of got me thinking and letting other folks in, will be kind of where I head this week for that challenge. All right. Anything else that people should know about games before games, as they kind of wrap up and issue that challenge themselves to challenge everybody?
01:07:00:31 - 01:07:21:34
Wade
Yeah. And so for this episode, until the next one, we're just all thinking about the physical proximity to the life that we want. And so for me, it was a bit more active. It's pretty outside. I'm going to physically position myself in a place that I can be better. And for Evan, it's about physically, approximating himself to those social relationships.
01:07:21:34 - 01:07:35:16
Wade
And I think that's a really, really cool way of thinking about two different sides of the same coin. So the question for you is who? How are you physically going to approximate yourself to get into the life that you want for the next week?
01:07:35:20 - 01:07:36:44
Evan
Good luck. Thanks.
01:07:36:44 - 01:08:02:08
Unknown
All right. And that is a wrap. Thank you so much for watching. And stay tuned for our next episode where we're going to be talking more about character creation and about why I'm concerned about the future of the Final Fantasy franchise. In the meantime, you can catch us on line on social media and YouTube and Twitch, where I stream every Tuesday and Thursday night central time 7 p.m. just search for Prof.
01:08:02:13 - 01:08:11:42
Unknown
Noxious. That's Prof. In Oct guys. And until next time walk tell my friends. Bye everybody.
01:08:12:59 - 01:08:14:46
Unknown
You.
01:08:14:46 - 01:08:37:26
Unknown
Thanks everyone for tuning in. This episode was written, produced and edited by us. The music comes from sing for the laughter. So if you like the music, definitely check out their stuff on YouTube. And our graphics and animations were designed by Nick Smith. Big thanks to Nick. We'll see you next episode.
