The ProfNoctis Weekly Show

00:00:00:16 - 00:00:17:20
Evan
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Prof. Noctis show. I am Evan, I'm here with Wade, and we are so excited for our upcoming interview with Schrödinger's baby seal, aka Clark. And we have a special surprise for you after this introduction. Wait, what can we expect?

00:00:17:22 - 00:00:44:22
Wade
That's right. And today we are excited because we are kicking off our Final Fantasy seven rebirth lecture series with an amazing interview. So good, in fact, that it is a two parter. So part one today, part two next week, and then we're going to get a lot of other content creators on to interview them as well. But today we are also kicking off our channel theme song, written and performed by Husky by the geek himself.

00:00:44:22 - 00:00:49:01
Wade
So go throw him some love and with that, let's mosey.

00:01:15:28 - 00:01:24:06
Wade
Hey, everybody, and welcome back to the weekly show. I am Wade, aka professor, not this. I'm here with my co-host, Evan. What's up? Evan.

00:01:24:13 - 00:01:26:05
Evan
Hey, everybody.

00:01:26:07 - 00:01:38:13
Wade
And today we are delighted to have final Final Fantasy creator, Final Fantasy seven creators, specifically Schrodinger's Baby seal, aka Clark. What's going on?

00:01:38:13 - 00:01:40:17
Evan
But I guys.

00:01:40:19 - 00:02:04:01
Wade
It is awesome to have you on the show. and I, nerd out every time I get to talk to you because you have, like, just so many cool ideas, theories, and you are like, I said to you off stream, you are like the maven of the Final Fantasy community, connecting people. Like, I got to meet so many people just because you were like, hey, you've got a cool vibe.

00:02:04:01 - 00:02:13:00
Wade
Come talk to these people that have cooler vibes and like, we all kind of work together. It's awesome. So I love getting to talk to you. Thank you so much for being here today.

00:02:13:02 - 00:02:29:24
Evan
I'm appreciate it. And hey, the pleasure's all mine. Like, I'm the one that's geeking out that I get to meet all of you. Okay, so let's have it. Yeah, let's let's let's definitely competitively be humble. Okay? We love me so far. I'm winning.

00:02:29:26 - 00:02:39:06
Wade
You okay? You're very good at humility. but you know what? Like, I will see your greatness in this realm because I am so low in humility.

00:02:39:06 - 00:02:40:22
Evan
Oh, God.

00:02:40:24 - 00:02:42:00
Wade
It's hard. Hard to beat.

00:02:42:04 - 00:02:44:28
Evan
Out that one. Yeah, yeah.

00:02:45:00 - 00:02:51:05
Wade
Well, we are really excited to have you here today. And, Evan, this is your your first real experience with Clark.

00:02:51:05 - 00:02:57:07
Clark
Isn't it my first time getting to meet Clark? We had a really fun time pre-show, so I'm very, very excited about where.

00:02:57:07 - 00:02:59:16
Evan
I'm confident this is going. Well, yeah.

00:02:59:21 - 00:03:11:19
Clark
We're at. Yes. So far we're having a great time and I'm looking forward to our conversation. You're too. So for me, I can say confidently the most humble thank you for coming.

00:03:11:22 - 00:03:35:10
Wade
Well, for for those who may be watching or listening. And you're like, who is this guy? Why? Why do we care? Maybe you're not in the Final Fantasy community, and this is not necessarily a stream household name for you. let me tell you a little bit about him, and then you'll be able to, to, hear a little bit more of Clark's story from, from our discussion.

00:03:35:13 - 00:03:58:01
Wade
I first started watching some of your streams when, I was I was like, I don't know, eyeballs deep into, Final Fantasy seven remake lore. And so you kept curating conversations all the time. And I was like, what are people thinking about this? Because if you're anything like me, you played the game. You have some thoughts.

00:03:58:03 - 00:04:02:01
Wade
but then you don't realize how wrong you were until you get online right.

00:04:02:07 - 00:04:03:09
Evan
After you were.

00:04:03:12 - 00:04:22:07
Wade
You were kind of like the, curator of all of these different thoughts. And I, I deeply appreciated that. so I guess to kind of kick us off, how did you get into content creation? And, like, was Final Fantasy seven kind of your first foray into it, or to tell us a little bit about that story?

00:04:22:10 - 00:04:51:22
Evan
Well, for content creation, yeah. Final Fantasy seven was kind of my first, foray into it. And, how it really started is that, in my outside life, I started, gaining some, relationships and partnerships that were getting me close to the, video game development and, had a, like, sort of tertiary relationship to remake.

00:04:51:22 - 00:05:15:19
Evan
And I can't really discuss what that looks like in any, concrete way, sadly. But because I was like, really? In that I started looking at the way that, you know, I went online to see how people were, reacting, responding. And, and one of the first things that kind of pulled me into content directly was sleep easy.

00:05:15:19 - 00:05:55:02
Evan
Sleep easy made a series of videos. And, I really liked the idea, that there was all of this. Educational opportunity in the lore. The the reason I said that is I, you know, I my scholastic, history has taken me into the, you know, all, all varieties of religion and myth. And we've we've briefly talked about that, and I'm sure we'll talk about it more, directly later in the conversation.

00:05:55:02 - 00:06:33:09
Evan
But in one of Sleepy's these videos, he, he, he makes reference to Boeheim and how he learned as a result of theory crafting that Boeheim meant the home of the missed. And he was able to make this correlation. And something about him making that correlation made me realize, oh, this, medium has such a, like, strong, I think I think it's a strong opportunity to get people fascinated and stuff that I, you know, really geeked out in.

00:06:33:09 - 00:06:54:10
Evan
And I had to kind of go the long way, you know, like, I, I got into Final Fantasy, like I got to do a lot of, my studies because Final Fantasy seven made me wonder what these words meant. And when I saw them later on, and, you know, a philosophy or history class would be like, I recognize it from Final Fantasy seven thing that happened in reverse.

00:06:54:13 - 00:07:23:07
Evan
And seeing him seek out information because he saw it in Final Fantasy seven, was really, it was eye opening and made me, like, fascinated in the idea of making content around, Final Fantasy seven. And then I go and I look at the content creator sphere, and I also see that people, people, very rational people, interpreted things wildly differently than I did from the events of remake.

00:07:23:07 - 00:07:41:07
Evan
And I'm like, this is awesome. You know, I love this. I love, you know, I love I haven't felt this way since, you know, the good seasons of Lost or like ten years after, ten years after, Twin Peaks, when, you know, that community started to become its own thing, you know?

00:07:41:12 - 00:08:14:24
Wade
Yes. Yeah. I love the reference. You know, lost is a pretty apt comparison because I remember those days of like, what's going to happen next season. What do we think is happening at this point? And that really the choice to make the remake trilogy across multiple installments instead of just one cohesive game? I think it's really done some great things as far as our discussions, because if it if it was just one release one and done a super, I guess 300 plus our game, if they were to do it this way.

00:08:14:26 - 00:08:34:22
Wade
once you finish and roll credits, hopefully most of the questions are answered. but I like this sort of liminal space that we can kind of imagine and conjecture. That's a really, really cool. So just to be clear, you picked up Final Fantasy seven back in the day, like the 1997 version, and that's what got it got you into it.

00:08:34:25 - 00:08:45:19
Evan
I'm old enough to have played it like within the launch window. Yeah. Me too. I could legally drive when I first played it to. Okay, so you.

00:08:45:19 - 00:08:47:17
Wade
Could go and pick it up for yourself in the.

00:08:47:17 - 00:09:14:16
Evan
Yeah. It's good. Yeah. So I, I experienced it as, you know, like a, you know, 16 year old and, so I was just, you know, you know, freaked out of, out of adolescence and, you know, and it sort of defined a lot of how I conceptualized my high school experience, you know, so, yeah.

00:09:14:17 - 00:09:31:21
Wade
It's more about that. Conceptualized your high school experience? I was, just a couple of years younger than you. it sounds like. But I remember it talking, speaking directly to my own sense of identity. I'm really curious what yours might your journey with. It might have been.

00:09:31:23 - 00:09:48:23
Evan
I think the most I. I think after it, it got me with the whiz bang of it all, you know, like the the flashy, like it's hard to kind of if you weren't, if you weren't there. It's really hard.

00:09:48:23 - 00:09:49:27
Wade
To be there, really.

00:09:50:01 - 00:10:16:03
Evan
To know how over the top of a leap Final Fantasy seven was generationally. I still still say this, and I believe this to be true. It was the first triple A game. there were TV outs for other games, don't get me wrong, but this was the first one where everybody was like, what is this? And it was an absolute it was an absolute event.

00:10:16:05 - 00:10:36:19
Evan
you know, the fives were were, I mean, look like look like Lego graphics now, but they were so over the top. Awesome thing. And, like, things like you, you went through you went through a, you know, 50 hour game, you know, for us, complete pianists, you know, with, with really good synth Midi music.

00:10:36:19 - 00:10:59:18
Evan
And then you get to the last track and they start singing and you're like, what sound is this? This is so nuts. So, I'll admit that the flash bang of it all was really just like it up to the presentation of gaming and storytelling and video games, and sort of cemented the medium as something that can tell stories, from a presentation standpoint.

00:10:59:25 - 00:11:25:09
Evan
It absolutely did. That. But the messaging really defined the way that I, you know, sort of had an experience in high school and, I went to a private high school, and it was a conservative private high school. And, you know, with a religious slant. And it wasn't really my choice, but it's just what happened.

00:11:25:11 - 00:11:54:13
Evan
And, and so I was kind of surrounded by even the 97. There was so much pushback from ideas around, tree huggers and environmental protection. And but I happen to live in a really beautiful area that we were seeing the effects of ecological damage already, just, just just from, you know, poor choices, being made, you know, by city planning and stuff like that.

00:11:54:13 - 00:12:38:21
Evan
And so I had this real connection to nature already loved animals as a kid. And so, from a messaging perspective, you know, the environmental stuff already made me feel like, hey, I'm kind of an outsider or in how I perceive that we should treat the world here. And I didn't really even understand from like, you know, from a, from a religious perspective, why so many people in my peer group were anti environmentalist when it seemed like, there's pretty solid, protect the planet, you know, messaging in the Bible, you know, just as a neutral Christian.

00:12:38:26 - 00:12:41:16
Wade
Cares and the entire realm of theology.

00:12:41:16 - 00:13:19:01
Evan
Absolutely. So, that so that was a part of it. But the other thing was that, you know, I, I really, I as many, you know, adolescent. And teen boys, you know, struggle with struggles with the concept of identity and Final Fantasy Seven's true, you know, plot cracks centers around Cloud's identity. And, you know, if you make it past the shark parts, you know, with arrow styling and stuff like that, there's this whole other thing that's the actual main point of the story.

00:13:19:03 - 00:13:55:06
Evan
And, and that resonated with me so strongly. You know, this idea of, you know, kind of changing the way that I thought of what it meant to be a hero, like a hero who's being honest with yourself. You know, a hero is, is is about how you how you contribute to the collective more than how you appear, you know, and that, heroics can take a backseat, you know, and that they're really like the, he wasn't on his own.

00:13:55:06 - 00:14:22:17
Evan
Instead he when he started to rely on others and rely on the collective, you know, to, put himself together. cloud was able to, you know, overcome, you know, insurmountable odds. And, it was put in a way that really, it's super common now. It's almost trophy, particularly in Japanese media. But it's trophy because it's emulating Final Fantasy seven.

00:14:22:23 - 00:14:48:21
Evan
You know, in a lot of ways, a lot of a lot of the, successes of Final Fantasy seven in particular became tropes because of the success. so it resonated a lot with the way that I, you know, sort of identified myself, you know, the things that I valued in a person, you know, in my high school experience.

00:14:48:21 - 00:14:52:08
Evan
And, yeah. So that's kind of how it led me.

00:14:52:10 - 00:15:21:01
Wade
These two things. And you mentioned a few others, but a hero is being honest with himself, and a hero contributes to the collective. These are pretty substantial things for a high schooler, to, to really conceive of and conceptualize, as it was contributing to your identity. What do you think it means to, to for a person? I deal with this with freshmen in at the university setting all the time.

00:15:21:04 - 00:15:39:01
Wade
If if you were to say, you know, this is what it means to be honest with yourself and to contribute to the collective, you know how much you steer that, in a way that is relevant, applicable because I do think that this is a pretty universally relevant story. But a lot of people, you know, turn it into a lot of different things.

00:15:39:01 - 00:15:48:17
Wade
But this is something that's like ground level sort of stuff. So how does that conceptualize and actualized in your everyday sort of high school life?

00:15:48:20 - 00:16:27:04
Evan
Well, I mean, the there is a lot of media at the time that, I don't want to say romanticized, but it did, validate isolationism, you know, like, and so, being the cool loner and stuff like that, and, I, I get that it's, it can be very challenging to, and dangerous and risky, you know, to, to develop interpersonal relationships as you're getting into the teens.

00:16:27:04 - 00:17:01:18
Evan
But, how this actualize for me is, is instead of, like, seeing myself as this island, you know, I put some of my guards down, I, you know, let down some of the walls and opened myself up. to be a part of and, and I was I was much happier as a result. Started to get friends and started to understand the value of friends and start to understand the value of being a friend.

00:17:01:20 - 00:17:23:16
Evan
You know how much that, helps you develop, like a healthy understanding of the world, helps you develop empathy and sympathy. And, so it really was kind of a game changer for me. And, you know, I cite that often, and I don't know how much of that is revisionist or I was just getting lonely, you know?

00:17:23:16 - 00:18:05:07
Evan
But, having that is, is kind of a guidepost is like, sort of this moral guidepost, you know, is, when, clouds stopped trying to idealize this version of a hero that handles all of his problems on its own, doesn't rely on others, is, you know, is a is a kind of caricature ized strong, like he's a caricature of what a strong person is, sort of the, you know, this kind of, absurdist ubermensch, you know, and, that was the ideal that, that he placed.

00:18:05:09 - 00:18:31:11
Evan
He placed it on Zach. but it probably more came from Sephiroth. And it is unsustainable for human living to be that way. And, you know, and it and it causes his psyche to be so fractured that when he got to a breaking point, the the person that he created was based on this unsustainable model for living.

00:18:31:13 - 00:19:05:09
Evan
And so, when he fell apart again and he had real people with him who, you know, where others centered and collectivist tech, you know, the, the person that was rebuilt, it was reformed. It was much more functional and had much more utility in actually saving the world, because that's who really does save the world is, you know, real people, who, you know, put aside, you know, their defects or are honest with themselves about their defects and focus on being useful to others.

00:19:05:11 - 00:19:18:22
Evan
You know? So, I don't I don't know if I could say that, as eloquently as a teenager, as an edgy teenager, but, you know, in retrospect, that's that's kind of how it actualized for me.

00:19:18:22 - 00:19:25:02
Evan
All right, everybody, it's that time of the episode. You know what time it is? It's our mini game. Stretch break. Wait, let's hit that music. Three, two. One.

00:19:25:05 - 00:19:32:24
Clark
But that band back up. I'm about,

00:19:32:27 - 00:19:34:09
Evan
We did it again on that. That's awesome.

00:19:34:09 - 00:19:37:09
Wade
You really got us back on Melody. I really appreciate that. Yeah.

00:19:37:14 - 00:19:55:06
Evan
So I the running gag is that I actually don't know what the melody is. I it's so even though, So, ladies and gentlemen, mini game stretch break, it's our time to get to know each other a little bit more. If you're on the YouTube, you will see the bingo wheel of vulnerability here. There are numbers one through 50 in this, bingo wheel.

00:19:55:10 - 00:20:00:15
Evan
And Wade has our questions from this week. Let's talk a little bit about what card deck we're pulling from.

00:20:00:18 - 00:20:17:27
Wade
We are today pulling from the Heroes Journal side quest deck. This is the original version. the Heroes Journal is a great way to think about your life using the Hero's journey. I use it in some of my classes in these, cards in this deck are a great way to have side quests for your life.

00:20:18:03 - 00:20:24:29
Evan
Love it. Okay, so one through 50. Clark as our guest, you get to choose first. Which 39 you like what.

00:20:25:01 - 00:20:25:21
Clark
39?

00:20:25:24 - 00:20:29:17
Evan
That Clarkson's guest 39. Wait, what do you want?

00:20:29:20 - 00:20:34:16
Wade
15? 15 was the number last week, so I'm going for it.

00:20:34:18 - 00:20:44:07
Evan
There you go. There you go. I'll go. 14. Wait. Well. But that Clark as our guest, I'm going to spin it. Listening. You can hear it. You hear it going here. You just tell me when.

00:20:44:07 - 00:20:50:24
Unknown
And, I'll stop it to grab.

00:20:50:27 - 00:20:53:22
Unknown
Okay.

00:20:53:24 - 00:21:00:20
Evan
Is that a win? Is okay. Win. All right, all right, here we go. That's the yellow one.

00:21:00:22 - 00:21:02:23
Evan
45. 45.

00:21:02:24 - 00:21:04:24
Wade
45. Hey, you were close.

00:21:04:26 - 00:21:19:29
Evan
That was close. That was close. So, listener, if you guess 45, you win. Let us know in the comments. Wait, 45th question. Okay, maybe count backwards five. Yeah, I got you one. Okay. Here. Do we had to count it all the way up to like 34?

00:21:20:02 - 00:21:33:00
Wade
We sure did. I've since figured out a solution to that. So as you do next of ten, it's great. Oh, here it is. Here it is. When was the last time you took a break from technology?

00:21:33:02 - 00:21:33:17
Evan
Oh.

00:21:33:18 - 00:21:36:24
Wade
When was the last time you took a break from technology?

00:21:36:24 - 00:21:42:08
Evan
And I forgot to physically stretch during the stretch break, so I'm going to get my stretch for that. Now think about that there. Yeah.

00:21:42:08 - 00:21:53:28
Wade
What was the last time you took a break from technology and what was it like intentional or intentional? What was the effect okay okay.

00:21:53:28 - 00:22:20:21
Clark
So I Friday through Saturday every single week of summer, take a nine hour hiatus from my phone and all technology while I'm playing volleyball on a beach. And for reasons I won't say here, you can't have your phone on you.

00:22:20:23 - 00:22:31:20
Wade
There you go, I did it. How is that practice been like life giving, I assume. Is it anxiety producing? Because as a content creator, I mean, you're disconnected, right? Like, how is it.

00:22:31:23 - 00:23:01:13
Clark
It is life changing. It is so good because you'll come back and you'll see that people have completely resolved, like, started, and resolve the conflict without your involvement. Wow. And you're like, okay, I'm glad I it turns out I wasn't needed and it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. And it's like, it's always good to remember that you're not the center of the universe.

00:23:01:13 - 00:23:12:08
Clark
Like it's, you know, like, hey, you're a part of, you know, like, it's really easy to get into. All of us get into. Well, I don't know about you guys. You guys seem very. You can speak 111.

00:23:12:09 - 00:23:13:08
Evan
Habits and you can speak.

00:23:13:08 - 00:23:13:17
Wade
And put it.

00:23:13:17 - 00:23:49:26
Clark
Awesome. Yeah, yeah. It's like the the constant fight against main character syndrome in society is it's harder now than it was then. And, there are other things that are easier now. So I'm not I'm not like an anti futurist. Like I don't want that to be the takeaway here. But I think that anything that you can do to actively participate in disconnecting from the idea that a world result revolves around you, you know, a world or the world, and instead, like, you get to be a part of the grander thing.

00:23:49:28 - 00:23:57:10
Clark
It's the life's more beautiful, though. It's so much easier. It's so much more comfortable. You're more comfortable in your own skin. It's the best.

00:23:57:12 - 00:24:01:12
Wade
That's incredible. Evan, what about you?

00:24:01:15 - 00:24:28:15
Evan
Long form. I had a trip to, out west, and it was like a mindfulness retreat, and none of our phones worked anyways, and the Wi-Fi was negligible, so that was probably the last, like, a really long chunk of time. And then, in a micro sense, it's summer here, and it's really hot. And I really love, going to the pool and floating with, like, a book or something.

00:24:28:15 - 00:24:45:26
Evan
And it kind of phones are waterproof now, so you're kind of like, yeah, I can have my phone in the pool, whatever. But that is a really nice escape to just kind of feel like you're floating and then mentally align yourself with kind of that bodily feeling. It's kind of weird where I end up without the technology. Good luck.

00:24:45:27 - 00:24:47:24
Evan
But you would.

00:24:47:26 - 00:25:08:06
Wade
so again, for me, kind of like y'all. It's about bodies of water being being at the beach or being at the lake or whatever it is. And, I found a few times this summer where I just, left my phone in, like, the hotel room or the condo or whatever, and didn't even think about it during the day.

00:25:08:06 - 00:25:29:03
Wade
And it's amazing how you just get back in touch without the constant barrage of information. I was telling somebody the other day, I was like, without my phone, it's easier to get bored. And that's a good thing because boredom is like a necessary ingredient for creativity. I think. and so it just catalyzed a lot of good stuff in me.

00:25:29:03 - 00:25:43:03
Wade
So, right. well, however, you all, who are listening or watching disconnect from tech. We would love to hear about it in the discord or over on Twitter slash X, we'd love to hear about your stories.

00:25:43:03 - 00:25:43:27
Evan
Get your stretches.

00:25:44:00 - 00:25:49:26
Wade
And how you have gotten your stretches in this week. So one last stretch before we leave.

00:25:49:28 - 00:25:55:00
Evan
Ooh, there it is. I'm stretching like I'm a baby wanting to be.

00:25:55:03 - 00:25:59:02
Wade
Like, pick me up.

00:25:59:04 - 00:26:01:25
Evan
All right, back to the episode.

00:26:01:25 - 00:26:32:23
Clark
I think it's really that the game modeled something for you, friendship, opening yourself up to relationships. But then it created a framework for you to take risks in your real life, outside of the digital world, to experience that, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what that moment was like, like when you got up to that decision making process where you just playing the game and you had this epiphany that you were closed off to the world around you, so you needed to step out and try and build some community.

00:26:32:23 - 00:26:44:11
Clark
What helped you get to the point where you felt like, you know what, it's worth it to take a chance here. It's worth it to risk this to to have the, like, change in my life that I want to see.

00:26:44:13 - 00:27:26:17
Evan
I. I absolutely had a moment after playing the life stream sequence particularly we call it the live stream sequence. It's I don't know that cloud's mind. Right. So that feeling of this segment. Yeah. Playing that segment, where I was, it was the first time like I'd ever been emotional playing a game and really can't think of too many times where watching a piece of watching or consuming a piece of media had made me emotional, and it made me feel like, like a very complex mixture of shame and, you know, a lot of revelation.

00:27:26:17 - 00:28:09:12
Evan
Like, I think I may have been doing my life from up to this point, you know, and it was palpable and real and how long that takes to, like, come into practice. It's a process. It's not like it's very rarely that any kind of change in my life has been binary, you know, like that. There's been other times where I sort of fell into other types of, you know, life disarray and, but there have been other times in my life further on down the road where I kind of do think of, you know, my, cloud's mind moment, you know, and, so it's, it's there's been poetry and repetition, you know, to

00:28:09:12 - 00:28:27:15
Evan
this lesson in my life as it's gone on. but I do remember very specifically while playing the game, having to take a breather, you know, the for the, for switching to the next disc. And it was for that very reason. It just hit me like a ton of bricks.

00:28:27:17 - 00:28:45:07
Clark
I appreciate you sharing that, because that's really cool that there's like one specific moment that you can point to because there's so many times in our life that it's just this amalgamation of decisions and it's it's just a lot of things kind of cycle around. Just over time, we start to realize the changes that we need to make.

00:28:45:07 - 00:29:01:26
Clark
And so to get like an actual moment and to be able to point to where you were in the game when you had it, I think it's very cool to have something concrete for people who are maybe experiencing those things. I hesitate to call them whispers with the two of you, but.

00:29:01:29 - 00:29:04:15
Wade
for people, that's a good word here. For me.

00:29:04:18 - 00:29:23:02
Clark
This is a safe space to say. Whispers or whispers. Yeah, I won't claim what they are. but, for those people who are experiencing those moments but have a hard time kind of actualizing them, maybe like you did, to have it result in something concrete where you knew that you needed to take a risk and make a change.

00:29:23:07 - 00:29:37:11
Clark
But what encouragement or what advice would you give to folks who are playing games? And maybe they start to experience something, but then they kind of let it go. They don't know how to make it real in their life, kind of like you did in a way that sounds like it really was a big change in your life.

00:29:37:13 - 00:30:14:06
Evan
You know, I, I, I'm remiss to say lean in, you know, know yourself a little bit sometimes some people, everybody's, you know, where there's all varieties, you know, of neurotypical and neurodivergent and some sometimes they're our risks to leaning into that kind of feeling. And you have to know, you know, and and, make sure that what you're doing is safe when you're leaning into something that's making you feel a certain way, like, is this rational?

00:30:14:06 - 00:30:43:18
Evan
Is that stuff? But if you feel like it's, if if you're stuck, you know, and you are getting something kind of telling you, hey, this is speaking to how you are stuck. This is speaking to a feeling that you felt stagnant on, you know, take the risk and lean in a little bit, and, you can always come back out, you know, there's,

00:30:43:21 - 00:31:05:01
Evan
Or don't do it alone, you know, like, get somebody else with you, find a friend, family and say, hey, walk down this path with me. You know, is awkward. Is that. It feels like I can't. I can't stress enough how valuable it was for me. and if it's not valuable for you, all that you've lost is a little bit of time, you know.

00:31:05:03 - 00:31:23:27
Wade
That, to have those conversation partners, it strikes me, even as you were saying, it almost sounded like you were using some of the same words. I love the ad campaign of, friends and support that Final Fantasy seven rebirth has really conveyed. Square Enix has really done a great job of buying billboards and ads.

00:31:23:29 - 00:31:25:06
Evan
For.

00:31:25:08 - 00:31:53:27
Wade
for for this kind of mental wellness and doing life together, which I think is a really nice thing. and it it perfectly aligns with some of the themes that you've extracted from the seven compilation, the original as well. Yeah. and it does strike me, you know, cloud in his self-actualization. It isn't just his journey, but, you know, Aerith says that she's trying to find him, and she's set on helping him do that.

00:31:53:27 - 00:32:32:27
Wade
Tifa, you know, iconic in the live stream sequence, right? and absolutely instrumental in in helping repair cloud. and just for those that may not be familiar with the Final Fantasy seven story, the live stream sequence is, is this again just, it is the the psychological crux of the entire game's story where this, fragmented cloud depicted by, multiple versions of the protagonist at different points in his life, begin to merge back together because he's had a kind of fractured, broken sort of existence.

00:32:32:27 - 00:32:59:21
Wade
And it is a climactic moment in Cloud's hero's journey. I guess, when all of those kind of come together, which is a pretty interesting lead in to some of our discussions about seven rebirth, especially with the, the, concepts of multiple worlds and all of that kind of stuff. so I guess, you know, the question that I would have is the original game hits you incredibly powerfully.

00:32:59:21 - 00:33:21:05
Wade
You undoubtedly have not only memories, but nostalgia and maybe a little bit of, guardianship over, over those memories. So how did remake and now rebirth really? play with that for you? I know a lot of people. It tampers with it. But what was your experience?

00:33:21:07 - 00:33:54:13
Evan
you know, and I, I mean to say that it's sacred to me. I think I, I'm not, I'm not a sanctity guy in terms of that, I do I, I really I think one of the things that's most sacred to me now, later, after, you know, becoming perhaps media over literate or media saturated here is, one of the most sacred things to me is, innovation and art.

00:33:54:15 - 00:34:38:06
Evan
and you probably. Or will you maybe not, but, some people might be surprised to, to know I'm not a big fan of remakes as a construct. Like, I don't like them too much. You know, for variety reasons, I won't get into here, but, so I was when FF7 r was first announced, I was a little bit trepidatious that, you know, we were we were getting into something that was kind of a soulless cash grab, for, you know, to to kind of, abbreviate my feelings on the subject.

00:34:38:09 - 00:35:18:13
Evan
but when, I kind of started to get an idea around 2019 when, trailers started to come out that indicated, they might be taking some creative risks here. the, the thing that I was most concerned about is that somehow Cloud's identity would not be something that was covered at all. But I've always been open to the idea of perhaps them covering it and a little bit more modern way, because we've come really far in the field of psychology.

00:35:18:15 - 00:35:47:29
Evan
Yeah. in, in the, in the past, you know, since 1997, you know, and my, I'd be, you know, one of my family members is, you know, a PhD forensic, psychologist. And so, you know, getting to go through that experience with them and watching, watching the way that's evolved. And then, you know, obviously academically, you know, the relationship between psychology and philosophy has always been really close.

00:35:47:29 - 00:36:13:25
Evan
And so generally, we are we have, you know, at least a tertiary understanding of the, of the advancements in the field. I'm talking to Wade here. you know, we we get an idea of how how that's evolving. you know, since so many are based, so much, psychology is based on, you know, and people that contributed to both Magisterium, so to speak.

00:36:13:28 - 00:36:42:10
Evan
and so, you know, seeing how much we've sort of changed the framework of, of how we look at identity, how we look at, mental health. I was very okay with them using, you know, the adaptive elements of, of, of the re trilogy, you know, the parts that they might, you know, take some liberties with to expand that.

00:36:42:13 - 00:37:08:29
Evan
you know, or make that, maybe even more relevant because I want it, you know, to have the same impact that it would that it would have on a kid in 1997, as it would on a kid in 2024, which is going to be different because the conversation is different around mental health and identity. That's a different conversation now than it was in 1997.

00:37:09:01 - 00:37:33:07
Evan
And so if this is going to deliver on the same front, on the same messaging front, you know, it needs to it needs to up its game. And so I'm fully okay with, with, revising some messaging to make it more relevant as far as plot details and stuff like that. you know, I've, I've been.

00:37:33:13 - 00:37:49:06
Wade
Before we go into, other specifics, I want, I would love for you to elaborate on that. How has the Re trilogy upped the game in those original themes, particularly relating to identity?

00:37:49:08 - 00:38:20:11
Evan
okay. Well, so I think just on a base level, it's addressed the idea of gender identity as an actual construct. It did so in, in remake. And, that's contemporary. That's an important thing to say. I think it also, tackled that in a way that's much, much less problematic then and then, the honeybee in scene in, in 1997, oh, you know, with, emphasis on inclusion.

00:38:20:11 - 00:38:52:02
Evan
There's a lot of emphasis on inclusion, so just on a broad sense of identity, but talking about cloud specifically, because of the scale of the game, because, you know, we're we're taking a 40 hour journey and putting it over 300 hours. You know, we're looking at, the it's it's hard to make what happens to cloud seem like anything other than a McGuffin.

00:38:52:04 - 00:39:24:03
Evan
If if it's the same length as it was in the OG, if it isn't being addressed consistently throughout, and we're not seeing the way that his fractured identity, impacts the people around him and the way that the people around him treat him for his fractured identity. Looking at using, using, for instance, the difference between the way that, say, Tifa, Aerith, and avalanche in general.

00:39:24:03 - 00:40:22:03
Evan
Like even Barret, the way that they are showing, particularly in rebirth, are showing him and the other reunion clones the sense of compassion, you know, like they're seeing them as, people that benefit from support rather than contempt that being used as a foil to the way that Shinra and Sephiroth, like most of Shinra, not not like Reeve and the good ones, you know, the way that, those sort of antagonistic forces treat and utilize Cloud's mental state, you know, and I think there is commentary to be made about how certain organizations, institutions and power structures capitalize on mental illness.

00:40:22:05 - 00:40:46:23
Evan
and I could just say that from my own experience in the military, and I don't want to get too deep into that, but that's that's something that I, I feel like the messaging reflects in, in Final Fantasy seven. And, and by showing in rebirth, you know, that there are there are multiple ways that we can deal with, identity issues.

00:40:46:25 - 00:40:50:15
Evan
I think it it highlights the issue really well.

00:40:50:18 - 00:41:02:11
Clark
What do you think it is that's powerful about a story in a video game that's able to address topics like that, that is maybe different than other forms of media, you know?

00:41:02:13 - 00:41:58:17
Evan
And Final Fantasy seven was one of the first things, first, first games that I really noticed. They did this, but they play with agency a lot. Agency in, you know, player agency has this ability to connect you to the character that no other media does. That's beyond argument in theology, something that that's always really struck me as one of the boldest choices they made, like a almost a Kojima level choice, was when you are at the Forgotten Capital, big spoilers, forgotten Capital, and you're walking towards Aerith, you're you can you can move the joystick, but it forces you to only move it in this way that raises your sword over its head.

00:41:58:20 - 00:42:34:15
Evan
So you're you have this agency all throughout the game, and then right there you are robbed of it. And so it's a way to connect you with the way that sometimes you lose control. You know, as and especially when we're dealing with identity agency and mental illness, that that can be a very relatable experience for people and in a way that it that won't translate just watching.

00:42:34:17 - 00:42:51:19
Evan
Like if your if your hand is on the trigger and it's forcing you and you feel like you, you've had this very consistent ability to engage and it's gone. Losing that feeling is so personal, you know, and it's so relatable.

00:42:51:20 - 00:43:14:04
Clark
Can we talk to just a second about how. And I was personally surprised by it, how impactful the HD haptics on the new controller were for the PSP to the storytelling experience, to be able to have like an accurate representation of what it would feel like to be in a vehicle or riding a horse. But then the trigger pulls to be able to have resistance.

00:43:14:07 - 00:43:36:17
Clark
and the way that that would impact my engagement with a story and tension like that, the fact that the trigger pull is actually more difficult and feels tighter, was a dimension of storytelling that I did not expect in getting into this kind of next generation. I don't know what you guys experience with it was, but it was crazy.

00:43:36:19 - 00:43:59:20
Wade
Evan, which is exactly, you know, the moment that Clark's talking about, you know, the moment of decision with Aerith, right? or in rebirth, you're clicking those triggers, you're trying to move it, and you have a very sort of tangible, resistance and feeling in your in your hands, in your body and in your memory, making all of it.

00:43:59:20 - 00:44:19:24
Wade
I remember that moment in a powerful way now, and I wasn't sure that it would work or work out. you know, because my, my biggest fear was, oh, gosh, are they going to turn this into a QuickTime event? Yeah, but the way that they did it really evokes that sense of, I don't want to do this right.

00:44:20:00 - 00:44:44:00
Wade
That was very much PS1 era, like, let's move the sword left and right, let's go a little higher at like, they did such a great job. What strikes me about this conversation, though, is that you are bringing and you know, I love to use this term, when I'm discussing seven or any game, you're bringing so many simultaneous lenses to each of these moments, right?

00:44:44:00 - 00:45:14:18
Wade
You've got this lens of identity, you've got this lens of agency and a lens that I would dare say somewhat defines. The game does as destiny to be defied, fate to be subverted in some ways, and that the game plays really playing into that. You know, these these lenses that you are utilizing for the game. Did you bring these lenses to rebirth beforehand, or did you discover them from the game itself?

00:45:14:25 - 00:45:52:15
Evan
Maybe a little mixture of both. I think there's, I think room to say that, you know, some of the, some of the lenses came from the OG for me, you know, like, and, the just my world experience, you know, scholastically and otherwise. but, I do think that, You know, the when I'm talking about how the message is more contemporary now, doing things in a contemporary way.

00:45:52:17 - 00:46:25:24
Evan
there the in particular, the, the decision to make like the Reunion Club like it as much as they didn't like it creatively. Like Neighborhood home is sort of a reunion rehab like, I like the concept that we are seeing these reunion clubs as victims instead of, you know, like mindless sacrifices or pawns. And we are seeing and we're applying that to cloud as well.

00:46:25:27 - 00:46:47:17
Evan
that's something I really had not conceived of as a possibility, is as to something that they can do to enhance the messaging about how we, you know, treat the stigma of mental illness. Yeah, I really so that's a new lens. That's the lens I got from playing rebirth.

00:46:47:19 - 00:47:11:05
Wade
That is such a cool insight. that I'm like you. I'm not sure I picked up on that from the OG, but the idea of, you know, we could just create these caricatures of these robed, experiments, failed experiments or whatever. But then you've also got to say that about cloud. It's like, oh, this is this is someone we know.

00:47:11:05 - 00:47:34:21
Wade
And to to lay that on to any level of, difference or demographic or divider. we have this person that we know, and then we have this archetype out there that we don't know. that creates some great dissonance for the player. And I think that's really, powerful, potent stuff.

00:47:34:23 - 00:47:39:24
Evan
Yeah. Agreed. So I'd like.

00:47:39:24 - 00:48:00:15
Wade
To get into some of this stuff with rebirth now, would you like. I'd like to get into some exact points because, you know, we, as you may have heard or seen, Evan, I like to approach Final Fantasy seven. Rebirth is almost like a crime scene. And for some people, it feels like a crime scene. to them it's like that was my childhood that you just massacred.

00:48:00:15 - 00:48:27:24
Wade
And so we're we're we're at the crime scenes. We're trying to figure it out and put it all together and stuff. now you know my heart. You know, I, I adore this game. Right? and, I, I've played it. I've, just gushed over it for, for hundreds of hours at this point. And I know that you have done the same, but it does demand a little bit of thinking and a little bit of, like wondering curiosity as to what exactly is going on.

00:48:27:24 - 00:48:49:21
Wade
So there's a few realms that I would love to kind of get into here. First of all, I'd like to just say, I mean, let's, let's dive right into the big one there and let's talk about Elliot's death. We've already kind of mentioned it a little bit at the end of rebirth. What do you think is half happening with Aerith?

00:48:49:21 - 00:48:57:06
Wade
Aerith death, allegedly. And what happens just beyond that quote death sequence?

00:48:57:08 - 00:49:34:11
Evan
Okay, so I would like to preface this, that, I would would not mind being wrong about the way that I perceived this, I, you know, I got a review copy, and I had nobody to talk to about the game for a month. That was the best or just that sat with the game and I just watched, and so I just I had to just watch the ending over and over again with my own footage, my own copy, and, reflect with nobody.

00:49:34:13 - 00:50:30:26
Evan
And I can tell you, walking away from it, my, my, perception was that. The nature of the scene was two serve Cloud's identity crisis. Right. So I am of the mind, like if I were to, you know, put money on it. Is that, we've got a force feeding cloud's delusion. and I think that the that that delusion was a like Hail Mary, so to speak, to use sports terms, was a Hail Mary by Aerith to circumvent Sir Frost's attempt to break cloud.

00:50:30:28 - 00:51:05:21
Evan
It was like a soft play by Aerith to, who recognized that if cloud were to fall further into despair in that moment because of his state, he would have, surely fallen, and so was the best that she could do in that moment, you know, was it was sort of, you know, create this, you know, maybe a last minute, like, imprecise surgical delusion.

00:51:05:23 - 00:51:59:27
Evan
and I do think there's even the possibility that, you know, she's through some kind of prescient communication, or otherwise communicated that as a plan to Tifa. So my my concept is that we're not. Yeah. Yeah, I my concept on that is that, Aerith is, you know, not physically alive, that the the true nature of reality is that, you know, she was she met her original fate and that, the delusion that cloud is experiencing is going to be fed further into the live stream sequence of the clouds main sequence, which will now, I think, create.

00:51:59:29 - 00:52:21:18
Evan
I mean, like perhaps the large narrative arc of part three, and there's a bunch of imagery that I think that supports this. you know, the, the you look at the rift in the sky, the as, as sort of a point of, evidence that, oh, maybe she's in one of these, you know, cloud is living in two different worlds.

00:52:21:18 - 00:52:46:19
Evan
Yeah. And I get that imagery until you compare that line in the sky, that rift in the sky, two clouds, mind, and you realize it's the same rift. Right. And so and also the there's a variety of explanation that sort of indicates that the interlude world or worlds, is something that has a different nature than the top level world.

00:52:46:20 - 00:53:12:15
Evan
Right? It's not the world. They're worlds within the live stream. You know, we get that dialog in Cosmo Canyon. it seems so, the the interlude world seems so, curated to Earth's specific relationships. Like the reason that because it's alive there is because because. And Earth had a relationship that was described in traces of two baths.

00:53:12:18 - 00:53:36:03
Evan
You, you know, he he, ran that orphanage right next to her house, right. you know, the reason that, Curie is there. Curie, a new Earth, you know, was was frequented the church, you know, so all of the characters that seem to make it into that interlude world seem to be, you know, echoes or remnants of things specific to Earth.

00:53:36:06 - 00:54:11:24
Evan
So that gives us an idea that the nature of these worlds are not grounded in the same type of causality, that the, the main world is that the, you know, prime Biegel timeline is. So I don't think the nature of that world, is indicating anything other than perhaps, you know, the, mental state. And, you know, we tie that also into, the conversation about yoga, Cara and, you know, the, you know, the world being sort of defined by hopes and dreams, etc..

00:54:12:01 - 00:54:37:01
Evan
So I do I I'm not saying that for sure. That means that, being or mechanism can't make clouds, dreams or delusions or reality. I don't see any indication that that's what they're doing. But if it is, you know, I I'm, I'm open to it. Like, that's fine. Please, just, you know, make it good if you're going to do that.

00:54:37:01 - 00:55:09:00
Evan
But my current interpretation of events is that the primary purpose of, seeing two versions of Eris death, one where she averts her fate and one where she meets her fate, are to create a thread that allows the clouds mind sequence the true climax. According to the devs of Final Fantasy seven, to have a much wider, presence in part three.

00:55:10:23 - 00:55:19:23
Evan
All right everybody, that's where we're going to wrap up. Part one, if you can believe it. I know that it feels like a little bit of a cliffhanger, but tell me what we can expect from part two. Wade.

00:55:19:25 - 00:55:30:25
Wade
The unknown journey will continue in part two, where Evan's going to recap everything, all the opinions and theories that Clark has had. And then we're going to go even deeper. So don't miss us next week.

00:55:30:26 - 00:55:33:25
Evan
See you next episode, everybody. Thanks for tuning in.

00:55:33:25 - 00:56:12:20
Unknown
You.

00:56:12:20 - 00:56:28:20
Evan
Big thanks to Husky by the geek for the new intro and outro music. Amazing! Thank you so much. Thanks to Nick Smith who did our graphics and thanks to Clark for the interview. Also thanks to you viewer viewers like you. Have a great week!