The ProfNoctis Weekly Show

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:19:16
Evan
Okay, everybody, welcome to the another episode of the Prophylactics weekly show. This is part two of our interview with Schrodinger's Baby Seal, aka Clark. In case you missed part one, where it's going to get you caught up, we encourage you to go check out the episode. But if you're starting here, that's totally okay because we're going to open this episode with a recap of some of his fan theories.

00:00:19:21 - 00:00:23:22
Evan
Go ahead and catch us up on what we talked about last episode. Wade.

00:00:23:24 - 00:00:40:26
Wade
Thanks, Evan. Last time we talked about how Clark got into content creation, how playing Final Fantasy seven as a teenager changed his life, and then we got into some of his true crime opinions and Final Fantasy seven. So get excited because the unknown journey continues as we go even deeper.

00:00:40:28 - 00:00:41:22
Evan
Let's do it.

00:01:09:14 - 00:01:19:26
Clarke
just going to overview some main points. Make sure that we've got it correct so that we can kind of restate it for the viewers. Because that was first of all that was beautiful.

00:01:20:00 - 00:01:22:28
Wade
Yeah, that was a beautiful summation. This is not your fault.

00:01:23:00 - 00:01:29:15
Clarke
Are you reading off a teleprompter for that series that was like, what is is this just Mind Palace?

00:01:29:17 - 00:01:34:15
Evan
here? not Clark's first rodeo on the show.

00:01:34:18 - 00:01:52:08
Clarke
Okay, I'll go point by point and you can. And I'm going to grossly oversimplify, kind of what you said, and you can just say yes or modify it to be more accurate. Okay? And I'll go quick because you you got on two post-it notes. so. All right. You ready? Clark?

00:01:52:10 - 00:01:53:17
Evan
Yes.

00:01:53:19 - 00:02:05:10
Clarke
Okay. You're saying there's a possibility that Aerith has put some sort of my words and that your psychological block on cloud in some way to protect him?

00:02:05:13 - 00:02:06:10
Evan
Yes.

00:02:06:13 - 00:02:31:15
Clarke
Great. you're saying that there's a possibility that she has some kind of. I think you said prescient communication where she is communicating with him actively in some capacity, regardless of if she's alive or not. yes. Okay. you're saying that she potentially planned some of this and made Tifa aware of it?

00:02:31:18 - 00:02:32:23
Evan
Yes.

00:02:32:25 - 00:02:46:08
Clarke
You're saying that the, worlds within the life stream are potentially interconnected worlds by their threads based on their relationships with Tifa, such as the orphanage and Biggs and a few other characters.

00:02:46:10 - 00:02:47:25
Evan
Aerith in this case, but yeah.

00:02:47:29 - 00:03:11:23
Clarke
Oh, sorry, I maybe I misspoke. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Connections with Aerith. Yeah. No, see, it says Aerith and not Tifa. Nice. and then you're saying it could be, a mental state and world defined by your kind of hopes and dreams. We're not sure how cloud is going to make these things real, but it has some connection back to, like, hopes and dreams and their manifestation into reality.

00:03:11:25 - 00:03:21:09
Evan
Yeah, I think they I think the devs left themselves enough room to do that. If, you know, they needed to.

00:03:21:12 - 00:03:38:18
Clarke
Okay. Yeah. And then the last thing you're saying, the primary purpose of showing multiple versions of Aerith fate is to have a thread that can pull a lot of potential things together and keep things open ended. Yeah, okay. That's it. Those are those where I think there's a summation for the viewers and the listeners.

00:03:38:18 - 00:04:14:11
Wade
And that was that was helpful because that was a lot to to really kind of comprehend and stuff. So thank you for for outlining that for us. Evan, with this idea of multiple worlds been, do you consider these splits in the life stream flow, or are these specific deviating hopes and dreams of Aerith or certain characters? How do you explain the multiple worlds kind of happening, all of the different rifts and the dogs, so to speak?

00:04:14:14 - 00:04:40:26
Evan
Yeah. so. The, the different dogs, you know, they I will say that they do seem to, each dog seems to kind of correlate to, a person that's kind of the main character of that sequence. If you just watch, if you watch it on its own, however, do you spell that.

00:04:40:26 - 00:04:43:01
Wade
Out for us? Because I, I've actually never heard that.

00:04:43:01 - 00:04:46:24
Clarke
And we've, we kind of catch everybody up, maybe who hasn't played the game what.

00:04:46:27 - 00:05:15:23
Evan
It is you're talking about. Yeah. So there's a, there's a dog called stamp and stamp is a Shinra mascot. And not it not at all existent in the OG. it was a, it is a mascot created for specifically the re trilogy project and in Final Fantasy seven remake. the dog was was like omnipresent throughout the game.

00:05:15:25 - 00:05:40:07
Evan
This is stamp loyal stamp cloud is called like like you're just like stamp a loyal little dog. Like there's all these references to stamp. Then it becomes graffiti and it's like this, it's very clearly like Shinra propaganda to get people to join, but they really like they throw it in your face. They name one of the chapters off of it.

00:05:40:10 - 00:06:11:16
Evan
They put it in the game like 180 times, you know, actually, like I actually counted there's actually like 400 stamps. But, you know, they put it everywhere, put the imagery, and it's all a beagle. And in the very end, when we see Zach have a different fate, this time in remake, in the original, he dies during his last stand in remake, we see a variation of events, and the chip bag with stamp on it flies by.

00:06:11:16 - 00:06:17:11
Evan
And just this one time it's a terrier. It's a different dog breed.

00:06:17:14 - 00:06:19:01
Wade
And we really still stamp.

00:06:19:08 - 00:06:26:04
Evan
It's clearly still stamp. It's got the hat. It's the it's on a chip bag called Stamps Champs.

00:06:26:04 - 00:06:27:08
Wade
Yes. Just in the.

00:06:27:08 - 00:07:05:11
Evan
Word. The word original is on it. And the developers, when asked about Zach's fate, were like, did you notice stamp is different? And, so they, they, they really made it clear like this is kind of going to be a thing in rebirth. stamp maintains his big illness through most of the game. there are some terriers thrown throughout, that were patched out, but I don't want to talk about that.

00:07:05:14 - 00:07:35:07
Evan
but for the most part, if you are playing as cloud and you're doing your party stuff and you're going, you're doing most of the quest, but you're going to see stamp, and it's going to be the lovable beagle that you're familiar with. However, in the interlude world, there are several interlude sections, including the one the very beginning of the game where you are playing is Zach, who is has a different fate that he did in in the OG.

00:07:35:12 - 00:07:35:20
Evan
Oh, he's.

00:07:35:20 - 00:07:36:25
Wade
Alive so.

00:07:36:27 - 00:08:06:11
Evan
And enjoyable. He's playable. Yeah. which is a different fate. Yeah. and, and it's different. It's different in a significant way because we see we see cloud. We see Zach actually aware of his demise at the end of Crisis Core. And Jill comes down. There's this whole feeling like. And this Zach, the Zach that we're seeing in the trilogy is really confused about his fate.

00:08:06:11 - 00:08:29:05
Evan
He didn't see NGL. He's instead like he doesn't understand how he survived, but he also believes that he's carrying cloud with him. So it's not like there are not clear indicators that he's in some kind of purgatory or afterlife. He's got things that are making it not seem, and there's real consequences in the in the place that he's at.

00:08:29:05 - 00:09:06:15
Evan
Like, people can still die there, but, you know, so this is a concrete world with the same mechanics, so to speak, as the top level world. So it is not just him going into the afterlife. It doesn't seem like the world is the world system works that way. As the game progresses, as you get, you know, further and further into the narrative, you get little snippets of of Zach's experiences in this interlude world all throughout Tahrir, Tahrir, Tahrir.

00:09:07:10 - 00:09:46:20
Evan
Until the last chapter and in the last chapter, Zach starts to make some decisions and, there's also inner LARPing events with the top world where cloud is pushed into the interlude world. Somehow, as the makeup of that world changes, there begins to be there starts to be some variety in the dog breeds. We see. It's not just to Tahrir anymore, and it's certainly not a beagle.

00:09:46:22 - 00:10:10:28
Evan
So for the date with Cloud and Aerith in the interlude, there's a scene where Aerith, you know, says, hey, you're in my dream. She says that you're in my dream. And they're walking around and, it's now like a Chihuahua. It doesn't look like a Chihuahua, but that's what the the the devs say it is. So I guess it's a Chihuahua.

00:10:11:02 - 00:10:36:20
Evan
It's a long haired Chihuahua. Yeah. So there's a Chihuahua timeline when they show a scene of Zach calling pigs to try and find pigs because he's holding a stamp bag. That's a pug we see later on. Zach, outside of a outside of the church, before the doors open up and and Sephiroth comes out and says, no, not you.

00:10:36:22 - 00:11:08:05
Evan
And Johnny is running by with, like, you know, a little hairless dog, you know, and, it's supposed to be a Spitz or something, and, you know, so there's these different dog breeds, and they all do seem to have a connection to a different, a specific character the pug with begs the, the, Chihuahua with, you know, Cloud and Aerith and, you know, the terrier with Zach, but they all seem to kind of manifest based on the decisions Zach is making.

00:11:08:07 - 00:11:20:10
Evan
And, I there is some inconsistency with the way that the scene is edited to make that totally viable for me, but it is, in fact, what the alter mania sets. So I'm just going to go.

00:11:20:13 - 00:11:25:01
Wade
the ultimate, can you describe the ultra mania, ultra briefly?

00:11:25:03 - 00:11:52:09
Evan
Yeah. So the ultra mania is a official book by Square Enix that, has dev interviews and is written by studio events stuff and is generally vetted by, generally vetted by the devs. Now, I will say that this particular assessment about decisions, is, is not necessarily written by a dev, it's written by bent staff, you know, bent stuff staff.

00:11:52:11 - 00:12:18:04
Evan
And so we can assume that it's most likely true, but if it ended up being something more specific to the individual holding on later, I also wouldn't be like, oh, that's the most shocking thing ever. But what we can say is that the nature of these universes seems to be tied to either decisions or like the collective unconsciousness of an individual.

00:12:18:06 - 00:12:26:12
Evan
you know, that's within this world. And so it seems to be like worlds manifesting as a result of consciousness,

00:12:26:24 - 00:12:48:28
Wade
Which goes into some understandings of, yoga. Right. And so what do you know about yoga, Korra? How can you help us and our listeners understand? Because the devs have talked about this idea of yoga Korra collective unconscious as maybe some lenses that could be useful for understanding what's going on here.

00:12:49:01 - 00:13:35:00
Clarke
Right. So, the the principal writer of Final Fantasy seven and the re trilogy is, Dojima Casas Dojima and, he stated in the Rebirth ultra mania dev dev interview that if you understand Jung's collective unconscious and Yoga Korra, you might be able to guess the plot of Final Fantasy seven trilogy. And, so Yoga Korra is a branch of.

00:13:35:00 - 00:14:11:15
Clarke
It's almost it's almost an, it's like ontology adjacent. It is a branch of conceptualize it of conceptualization in, actually kind of yoga schools, of more than one eastern religion. Right. and it's actually like such a wide practice that it can kind of describe a lot of things down to like dietary, models.

00:14:11:15 - 00:14:52:21
Clarke
So it's to use it as a word is, is, it's a little it can, it's a little broad. But for the most part, when people are talking about it, they're really talking about a specific element where that conceptualizes consciousness as having a relationship with reality. that is more than perceptual, meaning that it is more than receptive, that consciousness has the ability and power to define reality in a tangible way, make changes to reality.

00:14:52:21 - 00:15:37:17
Clarke
It is a, you know, it's it's sort of, it's sort of a more concrete and eastern, eastern centric version of positive psychology or the secret, you know, that kind of ideology. And, and so it's most likely like, if you were to take all of yoga, Cara and then try and look for, ways that that particular, school of, of yoga can be applied to the, the plot of Final Fantasy seven RI trilogy.

00:15:37:20 - 00:15:58:13
Clarke
you're probably not going to look at the cooking segments. You're probably not going to look at, you know, the dietary ideas or the stretching elements. You're going to look at the giant like rift in the sky. And the fact that Arya said things like, this is my dream, and then we're in a world that's like, you know, in Midgar, like.

00:15:58:13 - 00:16:30:24
Clarke
And that's another thing to note about the interlude sequence. The interlude sequence never branches outside of Gareth's home turf. We don't see we don't see Tahrir going gaga. We don't see, you know, hug Gold Saucer, you know? so it really is it does give a lot of indications that there's something about the nature of these world that is driven into existence by Aerith herself.

00:16:30:26 - 00:16:42:29
Wade
So what do you think that means for part three? How does everything end up if through the lens of yoga, Korra and Dream?

00:16:43:02 - 00:17:23:27
Clarke
it's a great question. It's a great question. And I, I don't have I don't have a good answer. because I, I. I'm fearful that what this what this could mean, you know, like a it's really easy for me to, like, kind of doom out on this and, and assume that what this could mean is something like, that a convenient, this death defying dream world where everybody gets their have a happy ending exists alongside the real world.

00:17:23:27 - 00:17:54:03
Clarke
And that does, I think, risk eliminating some of the stakes. And if you disconnect the stakes, some of the real world messaging loses its power and applicability. you know, for me, in a way that I've used stories, not everybody feels that way, you know, and, there's a case to be made that, like some, some messages sort of really transcend, you know, those kind of stakes.

00:17:54:03 - 00:18:26:04
Clarke
I think, you know, everything everywhere all at once is a great example of this, where they're, you know, really focused on messaging that kind of transcended, you know, the, the stakes of, the multiverse, you know, so to speak. But and it's also a the other the real quick I'll finish is that the other the other thing I'm worried about is that what what this could be pointing to is some kind of multiple ending thing.

00:18:26:11 - 00:19:14:15
Clarke
Okay. And, I, I, I don't I think it's unlikely that, they can get away with that if they do any kind of focus testing. Part of me wants them to do it because I love the risk idea of it. But also tell you this, and this is a little colloquial. Yeah. Okay. I was at a preview event with Cortese and Hamaguchi before the game came out, and Cortese was talking to an interviewer, and he was talking about how Final Fantasy seven, the OG, you know, pushed the medium in many ways to be on par, or at least in the same realm as cinema.

00:19:14:18 - 00:19:49:22
Clarke
And he believes that. And it is this great hope for Final Fantasy seven part three rebirth. You know, the part three, the rich ology that we can push that even beyond cinema. And I was like racking my brain like, how do you get beyond cinema more than you already have? You know, you're giving us. We get them. We had fight and oh, and that and that just made me stick to that idea that maybe, you know, like kind of the, the, the holy grail of storytelling in video games.

00:19:49:22 - 00:20:11:06
Clarke
Like a lot of people really try to do this well narratively. And I don't think anybody's like super nailed it yet. Is multiple endings like nobody's nailed it like Mass Effect three to nail it like. And Mass Effect is like the holy grail of choose your own adventure storytelling and so I'm, I'm fearful that maybe that's what he's going for.

00:20:11:07 - 00:20:51:27
Clarke
But like what if he nails it like hell? Yeah. You know, like I'm all for but in, in more of a practical sense, how can Yoga Cara, be reduced to something that can help with, the, the messaging. And to me, what we'd have to do is peel back the layers of it and say that you know, in a non physical sense, in a non corporeal sense, you know, there are utilities to positive psychology into believing in yourself, into making the world as you want it to be.

00:20:51:29 - 00:21:34:17
Clarke
it's just that it takes a lot more work and it hopes and dreams can manifest through actions. You know, like we talked at the beginning of this chat about how, you know, I was actualized into seeking out friendships and trying to build connections like you and think from, you know, the guy that throws parties, that brings all the creators together, that I was ever an isolationist and and the turning point was this game, you know, and so that's a way that, you know, positive psychology, yoga, Cara and, you know, quote unquote, the secret can actualize in a secular and real way.

00:21:34:17 - 00:21:49:18
Clarke
And I think that that messaging can still work really well in, in part three, you know, it does feel like a dubious and narrow path, though it does.

00:21:49:21 - 00:22:23:12
Wade
you just said something wildly beautiful and profound. the idea that you, an isolationist, have become this kind of person who brings people together. And you saw the value of it, and that became an identity shift, kind of mid, mid path because of this game. And I don't want to to miss that just because that is the power that transcends cinema, you know, like there is an agency involved and there's something just amazing there.

00:22:23:12 - 00:22:29:12
Wade
So I didn't want to miss that for a second. Thank you for saying that. That's a it's that's potent right now.

00:22:29:14 - 00:22:51:17
Evan
It's what you said. The the main point of the game is yeah. This idea that that and so the fact that that's the story that the game is telling and that you could find yourself in it and that through storytelling and you being able to interact with it, it empowered you for something to actually change in your life is full circle.

00:22:51:19 - 00:22:54:27
Evan
Wow. I have a follow up question, but it's silly.

00:22:54:27 - 00:23:00:01
Wade
So I have a question somewhat. We'll get back to your silly question.

00:23:00:04 - 00:23:02:09
Evan
Is it related to I wrote it down.

00:23:02:11 - 00:23:04:01
Wade
Okay, we'll get that.

00:23:04:01 - 00:23:26:01
Evan
Ladies and gentlemen, it is that time in the episode for our mini game Stretch Break. So I'm going to get another stretch and pretend like we didn't film these two mini game stretch breaks back to back. And we're going to kick off with that theme music. We have Clark joining us 3 to 1, but bombshell.

00:23:26:04 - 00:23:28:27
Wade
By the way what are you doing.

00:23:28:28 - 00:23:30:16
Evan
I just you know.

00:23:30:19 - 00:23:31:26
Wade
You just feel it like a rip it.

00:23:32:00 - 00:23:49:08
Clarke
All right okay. Because I'm experienced at this I did a pro move there and I'm muted my radio. I muted my headset so that you couldn't throw me off with your intentional disrespect of the melody.

00:23:49:10 - 00:23:51:29
Wade
Oh, now here's the here's the Lord that you.

00:23:51:29 - 00:24:01:15
Wade
Don't know about Evan. Evan spins almost every online waking moment in Final Fantasy 14, in the Gold Saucer. He knows.

00:24:01:17 - 00:24:06:05
Wade
This song. He's just saying that bad ad.

00:24:06:07 - 00:24:09:14
Evan
I don't, I don't because I have the music turned off in the game.

00:24:09:16 - 00:24:10:13
Wade
Oh boy.

00:24:10:15 - 00:24:12:25
Wade
You skip cutscenes and you turn the music off.

00:24:12:25 - 00:24:16:07
Wade
Anathema that it's okay.

00:24:16:10 - 00:24:18:16
Clarke
Do you do just likes to play okay.

00:24:18:21 - 00:24:20:02
Wade
He does he. I like to.

00:24:20:02 - 00:24:21:19
Wade
Sing of Vermilion or whatever.

00:24:21:19 - 00:24:24:26
Evan
I like to listen to music.

00:24:24:29 - 00:24:27:13
Clarke
Oh, man, I've done that, I've done that.

00:24:27:15 - 00:24:28:19
Wade
Do you play 14?

00:24:28:26 - 00:24:48:26
Clarke
Clarke I've played some 14. I'm actually, I'm. And I always keep very up to date with the lower like super up to date. because the Lord is really good. Like I really like, it's like so good. Yeah. Like. And I mean, I hate to say it, but like, sometimes that's the best way to like for Dontrelle.

00:24:48:26 - 00:24:54:01
Clarke
Honestly, watching it is probably made the experience fair.

00:24:54:01 - 00:24:55:14
Wade
No spoilers for Dontrelle.

00:24:55:14 - 00:24:58:27
Clarke
I am much better for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:58:29 - 00:25:02:20
Wade
but then Walker stuff is like, right down your alley.

00:25:02:23 - 00:25:04:16
Wade
Greek. and lastly.

00:25:04:18 - 00:25:07:06
Wade
The intellectual stuff. I loved that stuff.

00:25:07:06 - 00:25:15:19
Clarke
So yeah. Although I'll be honest, just from, like, like, what does Clark resonate with narratively? Hard to be Shadowbringers.

00:25:15:22 - 00:25:16:12
Wade
Yeah, I it is.

00:25:16:12 - 00:25:17:08
Clarke
Hard to be.

00:25:17:10 - 00:25:18:13
Wade
Shadowbringers. Yeah.

00:25:18:13 - 00:25:25:10
Clarke
Like it in like an anything like just in media period. Like it's Shadowbringers is transcendent. Yeah, yeah.

00:25:25:10 - 00:25:36:10
Wade
So you and I have never really talked about that. Ryan. that night Sky Prince and I, argue a little bit about that because I'm more of an N Walker guy. That's the one that hit me, though. I love Shadowbringers, don't get me wrong.

00:25:36:13 - 00:26:01:16
Clarke
Yeah, I, I so look I yeah and Walker does some things better than anything else and 14 by like a lot and there are moments but in terms of like the crux of both like, the emotional climax, it's, shattering. Hard to be Shadowbringers. Yeah, you're right, you're right. But there's so much.

00:26:01:16 - 00:26:08:06
Evan
So this is the part in our episode where we do a mini game, stretch break, and we get to know each other a little bit.

00:26:08:08 - 00:26:09:25
Wade
We can always talk about fate.

00:26:09:28 - 00:26:17:24
Evan
And so it's been nice to get to know, all the different things that you guys love or are drawn to. And Final Fantasy 14, thank you for sharing.

00:26:17:26 - 00:26:19:12
Clarke
You're welcome.

00:26:19:14 - 00:26:23:06
Evan
Wait, what? Literally what card decrees it here is like today.

00:26:23:06 - 00:26:28:29
Wade
We are going to be using our geek therapy card deck from Geek.

00:26:28:29 - 00:26:33:23
Wade
Therapeutics. they offer some prompt for us to have, deeper discussion. So.

00:26:33:29 - 00:26:41:29
Evan
Yeah. Okay, great. All right, so we got bingo. Wheel of vulnerability. We have numbers one through 50. Clark, as our guest, you get to pick the first number.

00:26:42:02 - 00:26:47:18
Clarke
And we're going to go we're going to go with, 19.

00:26:47:25 - 00:26:50:14
Evan
19 Wade one through 50.

00:26:50:16 - 00:26:51:20
Wade
42.

00:26:51:23 - 00:26:59:16
Evan
It says 42. I'm going to go with 26. All right listener don't forget to.

00:26:59:16 - 00:27:07:21
Evan
Pick your number. Here's the sound of the bingo wheel of vulnerability. Clerks let me know when to stop. Stop.

00:27:07:23 - 00:27:26:11
Evan
All right. See if it grabs one. All right. It grabbed one. It is red. And that number is. Oh my gosh, 27. I was 1000. All right. So rip off card number 27 there Wade. And let's get to it okay.

00:27:26:14 - 00:27:28:05
Wade
Here we go. This one.

00:27:28:05 - 00:27:29:21
Wade
Is rooted.

00:27:29:21 - 00:27:32:26
Wade
In anime lark. Are you an anime guy?

00:27:32:28 - 00:27:33:22
Clarke
Yeah.

00:27:33:24 - 00:27:34:04
Wade
You are.

00:27:34:05 - 00:27:36:08
Clarke
Okay I got you.

00:27:36:11 - 00:27:39:08
Wade
Awesome. We're really depending on you. And I guess, Evan, you're an anime. You got.

00:27:39:08 - 00:27:41:12
Wade
To. Okay, here it is.

00:27:41:15 - 00:27:46:13
Wade
I want you to imagine an anime world where you can achieve any goal.

00:27:46:15 - 00:27:48:03
Wade
What goal do.

00:27:48:03 - 00:27:51:11
Wade
You need to achieve the most at this moment.

00:27:51:13 - 00:27:52:28
Wade
I have about what's.

00:27:52:28 - 00:27:54:25
Wade
Preventing you from achieving.

00:27:54:25 - 00:27:57:12
Wade
It? How would this particular.

00:27:57:12 - 00:28:00:22
Wade
Anime world allow you to complete.

00:28:00:22 - 00:28:02:17
Wade
That goal? So we're.

00:28:02:17 - 00:28:07:19
Wade
We're thinking not in terms of you are just in this world, but you're in an anime.

00:28:07:19 - 00:28:09:04
Wade
World.

00:28:09:06 - 00:28:28:06
Wade
They put a real world challenge you have in that anime. And how would you solve it in that anime world? Does that make sense? Okay, so give you a moment to think. I'm going to have to think hard about the anime that I have seen.

00:28:28:08 - 00:28:31:01
Evan
You're making an anime world make your own anime.

00:28:31:06 - 00:28:33:17
Wade
Make my own anime work. Yeah, well, I think it's.

00:28:33:20 - 00:28:35:04
Wade
The way I took it.

00:28:35:07 - 00:28:41:06
Wade
My my perspective was that you're imagining an already pre-made anime world, but I you can do anything.

00:28:41:06 - 00:28:43:23
Evan
When I'm making my own. I'm going to make my own. I'm gonna make my own right now.

00:28:43:23 - 00:28:45:11
Wade
Okay. Yoga Korra. Over here.

00:28:45:11 - 00:29:01:13
Evan
I'm gonna. Let's go manifesting. I'm manifesting my own anime world. And in that world, this world that I am in, it is a world of dogs. It is a dog specific anime based and inspired by our conversations from this episode.

00:29:01:15 - 00:29:02:29
Wade
And I have a dog.

00:29:03:02 - 00:29:24:07
Evan
I'm dog. Everybody else is a dog. The only dogs in this world. There's Millie, my dog behind me. And in this world we are needing to go grocery shopping and that is the goal that I have is to eat healthier. And as a dog, I have to figure out how to get into the grocery store and we are going to steal some food from the grocery store as dogs.

00:29:24:14 - 00:29:43:16
Evan
And so it is now dogs. Ocean's 11. It's a heist anime, and me and my other quadruped canines are in our way to steal healthy ingredients to solve the problem of our poor nutrition. So that is the anime that I have created for myself. Popcorn. Either one of you.

00:29:43:19 - 00:29:44:21
Wade
Wow. Thank you.

00:29:44:21 - 00:29:48:27
Wade
Thank you Evan I would watch dog Ocean's 11 squid.

00:29:49:00 - 00:29:50:25
Clarke
Yes.

00:29:50:27 - 00:29:52:11
Wade
What about you? What?

00:29:52:13 - 00:29:56:15
Clarke
Oh, I'm going now. Okay.

00:29:56:17 - 00:29:58:05
Wade
I guess.

00:29:58:08 - 00:29:59:12
Wade
In my anime world, you.

00:29:59:12 - 00:30:00:14
Wade
Go fix it.

00:30:00:18 - 00:30:03:01
Evan
Wait, wait. The anime world. It's an interview world.

00:30:03:06 - 00:30:31:24
Clarke
I, I am in, yeah. I am using the power of Yoga Korra to manifest me not going right now. okay. All right. welcome. Welcome to a journey. All right, so my goal. Okay, I have to. By the end of the day, this is a real world goal. I have to clean my house and, like, pretty well.

00:30:31:27 - 00:31:00:05
Clarke
And, I'm also, I also have to balance cooking 1 pound of Alaskan king crab, for, my wife, because it's, like, she's had a very long week at work, and I. If this is like, her last day of work until she gets her weekend, and I want her to come home to her favorite meal and a clean house.

00:31:00:07 - 00:31:40:21
Clarke
And so in the anime world of Dragon Ball, how I would solve this problem is I would go on a tangential journey in a spaceship with a hundred g gravity and train really, really hard so that I am strong enough to scrape every last bit of dirt off of the blinds that were supposed oddly dirt resistant, but that was a lie by Ki moon marketing.

00:31:40:23 - 00:32:03:17
Clarke
And, so I'm going to charge my ki aggressively while staring in a mirror and screaming at the top of my lungs for at least 30 minutes and then, scrub the bejesus out of, out of that while some crab boils.

00:32:03:20 - 00:32:06:27
Wade
I love it. I see it perfectly.

00:32:07:00 - 00:32:08:25
Wade
That's amazing.

00:32:08:27 - 00:32:12:15
Wade
Thank you for that. so Dragon Ball is like.

00:32:12:15 - 00:32:19:03
Wade
One of two animes that I've seen, and I haven't seen all of it, obviously, because there's like a billion episodes.

00:32:19:05 - 00:32:27:28
Wade
But I have got to completely devise two syllabi.

00:32:28:01 - 00:32:32:27
Wade
pretty soon, to finalize those and just get all the things ready.

00:32:33:04 - 00:32:33:29
Wade
I also have to.

00:32:33:29 - 00:32:51:04
Wade
Finish up some work on my lecture series. that's coming up for Final Fantasy seven rebirth, and I've got a series of meetings, so I've only seen two anime. one is Dragon Ball, the other one is Love Is War, which is my absolute favorite. And I'm here.

00:32:51:05 - 00:32:59:19
Wade
For really good anime. I love it, and the way that the way that the what.

00:32:59:19 - 00:33:00:23
Clarke
A dichotomy.

00:33:00:25 - 00:33:03:16
Wade
It is. It is the two faces that.

00:33:03:17 - 00:33:07:07
Evan
Moon and all of Tolstoy.

00:33:07:10 - 00:33:12:07
Wade
Pretty close with me. so the way that they solve,

00:33:12:09 - 00:33:19:01
Wade
dilemmas is that I've found that in a split second, they severely overthink everything.

00:33:19:01 - 00:33:20:05
Wade
All right. But it takes.

00:33:20:05 - 00:33:20:25
Wade
Place in the.

00:33:20:25 - 00:33:25:28
Wade
Split second. But it's like half the episode. Okay? So, like, they'll be like, oh, so this back here, we.

00:33:26:00 - 00:33:33:25
Wade
Went into this and this conversation, did they mean this or did they mean this? They go down all of these different things. So in this anime world I'm looking at.

00:33:33:28 - 00:33:36:00
Wade
Syllabus,

00:33:36:03 - 00:33:47:16
Wade
You know, relationships with colleagues, working with, some, some, partners of the stream and all this kind of stuff and thinking to myself in a split second, how can I incorporate.

00:33:47:16 - 00:33:48:04
Wade
All.

00:33:48:04 - 00:33:58:12
Wade
That I know into a momentary decision so that I can knock this out really, really fast in the scope of about 25 minutes to make it a single episode, which would be incredible.

00:33:58:12 - 00:34:00:14
Evan
That would be for him for commercials.

00:34:00:16 - 00:34:03:04
Wade
Even for commercials. Yeah, he doesn't.

00:34:03:04 - 00:34:07:19
Evan
Roll back sponsors. Hint, hint.

00:34:07:21 - 00:34:11:12
Wade
So that's how we do it, today, how would you address your.

00:34:11:12 - 00:34:14:27
Wade
Real world problems using an anime world.

00:34:14:29 - 00:34:19:07
Evan
Manifest? Back to the episode.

00:34:19:10 - 00:34:19:22
Wade
Let's go.

00:34:19:22 - 00:34:42:02
Wade
But I have a question here. You know, this idea, it would be a bold, I'm gonna say bold move to make this game end in multiple endings where people's hopes and dreams are all realized. it almost goes into some theology. Is that, heaven or nirvana or afterlife is, specifically catered to the one living it?

00:34:42:04 - 00:35:11:21
Wade
And so if there's, some theologies that go into that, this game, however, does also play with the idea that there are multiple dreams, multiple hopes, but oftentimes conflicting hopes and dreams depending on who you're talking to. In fact, this the whole, idea of resistance against Shinra resisting Sephiroth dream for the planet, for himself or his world and subsuming everyone into that.

00:35:11:23 - 00:35:37:16
Wade
And so I wonder, you know, how do you how would you deal with that mindset of, you know, everyone's hopes and dreams kind of coming to fruition, but also identifying that some hopes and dreams may not be for the collective good. And what do you do? What do you do when there's a conflict, in that in, in the game.

00:35:37:16 - 00:35:43:03
Wade
And how do you see that, theme sort of played out a little bit.

00:35:43:06 - 00:36:21:07
Clarke
So, I mean, conflict is the conflict between people's wants and needs. Is, is, is definitely kind of core to the experience of Final Fantasy seven. And I think the read trilogy does this really well by building the geopolitics of the, of the world. So organically it looks the the world feels and acts much more like, a real, you know, mirror of our own society.

00:36:21:09 - 00:36:49:01
Clarke
And as a result, you see these factions with these different, you know, set of values and hopes and dreams coming into conflict. And, you know, from a top down point of view, a lot of that is displayed and, you know, as, as nature taking its course. Right? We see a lot of, you know, we have Boog and Hagen talking sometimes about, you know, well, that's just the way it's supposed to be.

00:36:49:01 - 00:37:23:10
Clarke
That's so that's, you know, that's what have been said as to the cycle of life and death, you know, is that the conflict can, can result in death, which returns your energy to the planet. And, you know, that then grows more life. And so it's the cycle. And so the conflict is a necessary element of the world system, you know, and, a lot of times, the difference between one person's hope and another person's hope results in one of them surviving and the other dying, you know?

00:37:23:10 - 00:37:53:26
Clarke
And so, that that natural cycle stuff is really, I think, how they address the conflict between competing hopes and, but it does, I think address which it does, or it does at least allow the player or the viewer to make assessments on, which set of hopes and dreams has the most utility in serving the most people you know and, like it does.

00:37:53:26 - 00:38:29:13
Clarke
Do. So I think with by creating foils between, say, you know, the way that Pojo and the darker sectors of, of Shinra want to deal with these reunion clones and then the way that, you know, the poor people, the people at home that just, you know, want to feed them and cloud and, and, and you know, co being kind of, you know, defensive of the of the reunion clone that gets shot in, you know, in the Shinra, you know, by Captain Titov, like, saying, hey, why did you do that?

00:38:29:13 - 00:38:55:14
Clarke
You know, like it gives us this these, you know, these snapshots of different ways, to to be in a conflict, the different hopes that you can have. And what hope should you adopt? What dreams should you have if, your values, you know, are for the betterment of the collective. And I think it gives you, you know, like all stories do, that.

00:38:55:14 - 00:39:05:12
Clarke
I mean, this is it's really not it's not it's not a Final Fantasy reinventing, you know, morality play. But it does do it. Well, you know.

00:39:05:16 - 00:39:28:09
Wade
There's been so much discussion about, and and even on your show with, Phil Hartshorn, the idea of redeeming at least some part of Sephiroth story, the desire to save everyone, which I think is a really compelling idea, even though it's not necessarily saving or redeeming him. It's an interesting way to see his transformation.

00:39:28:12 - 00:39:28:26
Clarke
Yeah.

00:39:29:03 - 00:39:59:10
Wade
And so to to think sympathetically about some of these, more villainous intentions, not necessarily sympathetic, but maybe in a more grounded sense to understand a more fleshed out version. Why do you think this game's message is about? The dreams that one should align with or not? Like a how do you what what is a what is a moral scope?

00:39:59:16 - 00:40:19:05
Wade
According to Final Fantasy seven, you know, it arranged so much of our childhoods, figuring out what we stand for, what we are against, all that kind of stuff. What would you say is the moral imperative if there is one, or at least the questions one should ask when they're thinking about who am I and what do I stand for?

00:40:20:15 - 00:40:28:04
Clarke
So that's heavy and I, I, I love it, I love,

00:40:28:06 - 00:40:33:18
Clarke
I do think that,

00:40:33:20 - 00:41:32:04
Clarke
Final fantasy seven makes surprisingly few directly moral statements, but it does present a story that makes it seem obvious to side with others, with others autonomy. and. And allowing, allowing people to make and embrace their own mistakes. So it does really I think, make a moral argument, against, you know, oligarchy against totalitarianism about, it's, it says that, you know, your dream is to have make your own decisions.

00:41:32:06 - 00:42:05:15
Clarke
You know, Jack is a particular. Zach seems to be sort of, pushing into, you know, the dreams and honor. Bit like, seems to be about. I'm tired of being told what to do. I'm tired of, you know, not having agency. I want to live my way. and. I think what that's being what what morality is being pushed there is about the collective well-being within the construct of individualism.

00:42:05:17 - 00:42:37:20
Clarke
And I've always said that this game is or really, or that this story is a really interesting juxtaposition of, collectivist ideology and individualist societies because it talks a lot about individual agency and choice. But it also makes strong points for collectivist, other centered ideas and morality. So you look at Seth Roth and Sephiroth, you know, is a caricature of somebody that supposedly has everybody's well-being.

00:42:37:23 - 00:42:59:26
Clarke
in mind by saying they know what's best for them. Right? So that's, that's that robs them of agency, which isn't what's best for them. You know, it's also arrogant and absurd. but you see reflections of that in the real world, like, it's, it's not, not from nowhere. Like, you see a lot of that in, in the real world.

00:42:59:29 - 00:43:21:18
Clarke
And so it's, it is commentary on that. And it does give you a look at what that looks like, whereas you look at, you know, Zach is a good character for this because you look at it particularly in rebirth, because we're talking about this game, we're talking about rebirth. Zach is somebody that, joined soldier because, you know, he's just a dumb kid.

00:43:21:18 - 00:43:50:17
Clarke
Didn't know what else to do. But it's always clear. He's always wanted to do the right thing. He's always wanted to be a good person. And, you know, so he is as much a victim of, of the situation as everybody else. And where he gets his kind of moment here is in the interlude sequence, you know, where he's kind of tired of dying, you know, or tired of the same thing happening over and over again.

00:43:50:20 - 00:44:18:16
Clarke
and he resists that. So there's this idea of resisting, you know, the, the system that's keeping you without agency. and, and if anything is out there saying, hey, you're not allowed to be either centered, you're not allowed to help your others. You need to be in this box, you know, then that's probably inherently considered a bad system.

00:44:18:18 - 00:44:25:07
Clarke
According to the morality shown by the, you know, Final Fantasy seven and related media.

00:44:25:11 - 00:44:46:25
Evan
Good. I think that we talked earlier about the stakes and how the game sets up the stakes. What does it mean if the conflict is resolved one way or the other, and the stakes provide weight within this story, it seems to me it might experience that the tipping point of irreparable harm is part of what adds to the stakes of the character conflict.

00:44:46:25 - 00:45:10:05
Evan
This idea that your expression of your individual liberty is going to result in destruction that will never get something back, almost like a silent spring. If we go too far, we won't do this. So the only option that I have is to destroy your endeavors before they can destroy everything. And some characters believe that we're headed towards irreparable harm and others don't.

00:45:10:12 - 00:45:20:17
Evan
But that seems to be the container in which that moral struggle is placed. How do you think that is impacted by the storytelling and where they may go in the future?

00:45:23:11 - 00:46:08:12
Clarke
you know, like I said, it's something I'm a little nervous about. you know, but, Yeah, I, I think because so much of the world of Final Fantasy seven is meant to mirror our own, a lot of the messaging relies on takes that could happen in our own world. you know, for those of you that aren't familiar with the Final Fantasy seven lore, the original concept for Final Fantasy seven was that it was.

00:46:08:14 - 00:46:37:17
Clarke
It took place in New York, New York City, and, that you, it's you. You can still see, like, references to that. there's a stereotypical, connection between New York and pizza. And so that's why Midgar is shaped like a pizza. and under the rotting pizza is, is sort of a in-game message. These are references to New York City.

00:46:37:24 - 00:47:05:11
Clarke
There's also obvious American references, you know, like, yeah, having, orange blond, you know, guy that, owns a lot of businesses and puts his name on stuff and, maybe over overstepping his reach. you know, there's references like that. You know, I'm not I'm not saying that, you know, by the time that, the the trilogy came out, that for sure, that was, messaging that they were saying.

00:47:05:15 - 00:47:10:11
Clarke
But it is sort of like a caricature of, like an American rich guy, I think.

00:47:10:11 - 00:47:25:19
Evan
So changed it to, though. I mean, I think the subway cars were a big thing for me. Like, those are very, it's a very American subway experience. Those are very American subway cars. And as a kid, that's what I related to because I was like, oh, so in the new ones, they could have shifted it back to be something that was more Japanese.

00:47:25:19 - 00:47:37:03
Evan
And they reinforced that kind of sentiment in like the way that those first conversations happened and the way that it introduces you to the story. They happen in like a New York style subway scene, not a Japanese style.

00:47:37:06 - 00:47:48:17
Clarke
Absolutely. And the propaganda, you know, some of that's taken straight from, you know, like, Army propaganda etc.. Chapter four, right? Yeah. yeah.

00:47:48:17 - 00:47:53:10
Evan
For small reptiles being raised by a rat, each named after him.

00:47:53:13 - 00:48:16:25
Clarke
this. Is exactly. yeah, 100% there is, you know, there's no doubt about it. I mean, if you go to and remake, if you go to, heiress house, you look at the butterfly. I'm not joking. The butterfly is. The butterfly is an American flag. It's wings are an American flag.

00:48:16:25 - 00:48:22:02
Evan
I'm not joking, I don't really. I'll be googling. Hold on. You're good. I'll. I'll be back.

00:48:22:05 - 00:48:29:08
Clarke
And. Well, no, you'll have to. You'll have to go and play the game because I don't think it argues that.

00:48:29:08 - 00:48:31:25
Evan
Anyone ever talked to. I've literally never heard.

00:48:31:26 - 00:48:33:06
Wade
This is the first time I've heard of that.

00:48:33:07 - 00:48:35:24
Evan
Have you talked about that before?

00:48:35:26 - 00:48:40:16
Clarke
Early in my career. It's actually lower building for me. If you wonder why my. This is a.

00:48:40:16 - 00:48:42:22
Evan
Profound act, this weekly show first.

00:48:42:25 - 00:48:49:23
Clarke
So. So if you wonder why my logo is a butterfly.

00:48:49:23 - 00:48:51:23
Wade
I've wondered that. Yeah.

00:48:51:26 - 00:49:21:21
Clarke
It is because sleep easy, drew that butterfly. Because of our deep floor conversations about the USA butterfly, he also he mixed it with the cross slash two to make it kind of you know, it was a little bit it was too deep of a cut before that. the other thing is I also, live in a Monarch Grove, and, I'm very attached to the the forestation efforts with the monarch, stuff like that, to other things.

00:49:21:21 - 00:49:49:05
Clarke
So I was like, okay, I can keep it so it can't. It's not just a dumb, weird, prodigious level reference. It's also, you know, I love butterflies. So, but yeah. So to to get back on track with your question, though, you know, my, my thoughts on, the tipping point thing, I, I think that's a really good point with, with Earth's fate in particular.

00:49:49:07 - 00:50:22:28
Clarke
why Earth's fate was a tipping point is because she is the last of his species. And if we're talking about games with environmental messaging, there's something more poignant about that messaging. If you lose the last of a species now, that's getting a little muddy now because of new contributions to the law, like, for instance. And this is not in the games, this is in the rebirth altar mania.

00:50:23:01 - 00:50:31:06
Clarke
we find out that the reason Boog and Hagen has lived so long is because he's got Cetera descent.

00:50:31:08 - 00:50:32:24
Wade
Interesting. Okay.

00:50:32:26 - 00:50:54:01
Clarke
Yeah, that's like a I'm not a big fan of that kind of lore being gated behind. right. But it is. But we are getting to the point where it's kind of like, maybe they're pulling off of that messaging, or maybe it was unintentionally poignant, like they didn't really think about it when they wrote it like this is very poignant that The Last Unicorn is dying.

00:50:54:03 - 00:51:19:24
Clarke
You know, The Last Unicorn is another like, formative, environmental like piece of media aimed at children from, you know, for people and my elderly generation, you know, so, you know, like that was very poignant. So the, the, the idea of those tipping points being the stakes that we relate to and how they really help with the messaging.

00:51:19:24 - 00:51:43:24
Clarke
Right? So we're being we're being shown this world that's very similar to ours. And we're seeing, stakes that are just a hop, skip and a jump away from our own world and choices that people and power could make for us, and that the little choices that we make, you know, it's it's really easy to feel like we've got nothing to contribute to that.

00:51:43:26 - 00:52:28:17
Clarke
and what what this game does is it takes a person that wants to be extraordinary so much that he loses himself in the process. And when he finds himself and his ordinariness, and that empowers him to do the extraordinary, that messaging again relates to this story with real stakes that we can relate to. And so again, how this, you know, relates to, you know, like a practical version of yoga, Kara, is that the stakes really make the payoff of our audience three selves.

00:52:28:17 - 00:52:52:12
Clarke
Being able to make real change in the world have stakes to we think, oh, they're real stakes in this world. But my actions to even little me, you know, even little Clark, you know, can do things that have an impact. You know, it starts as a single ball of snow, but it becomes an avalanche. Yeah.

00:52:52:14 - 00:52:56:06
Speaker 4
Oh, I cannot okay.

00:52:56:09 - 00:52:58:10
Clarke
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

00:52:58:13 - 00:53:00:05
Wade
No good.

00:53:00:08 - 00:53:02:25
Clarke
That's.

00:53:02:28 - 00:53:04:20
Wade
That was amazing. That was amazing.

00:53:04:26 - 00:53:07:05
Clarke
I don't know if I answered your question well or not, but.

00:53:07:08 - 00:53:48:00
Wade
You stuck the landing well enough. no, that was perfect. Truly. Oh, we're clipping that, by the way. That was like an amazing, assessment. And it's exactly what I would hope. some of my students sometimes ask me, why would I play Final Fantasy seven? And I think I'm just going to show them that clip because it is such a reminder of this kind of individual growth mindset that leads into, just to the betterment of the community around you, the collective again.

00:53:48:00 - 00:54:00:08
Wade
And I think that that is potent and poignant. So thank you for that. That was that was amazing. Evan, do you have any closing questions for us? Anything you'd like to.

00:54:00:08 - 00:54:06:11
Evan
I'm terrified to ask a closing question because I it's going to open more doors and I know more.

00:54:06:12 - 00:54:07:10
Wade
We could saw.

00:54:07:10 - 00:54:08:15
Evan
Possibility.

00:54:08:18 - 00:54:09:23
Wade
For days. Right.

00:54:09:26 - 00:54:10:29
Clarke
Nine hours. Easy.

00:54:10:29 - 00:54:26:17
Evan
Yeah. I have a I have one question that I think is important that I'm really curious about. And then I have one question that can close us out. I can ask them both if we want to take a few more minutes, but I'll let us decide together.

00:54:26:20 - 00:54:28:25
Clarke
why don't you just ask them separately?

00:54:28:27 - 00:54:40:14
Evan
Okay. I'm going to ask the. I'm going to ask a more open ended question first, and then I'll ask the question that is just like I'm dying to know. That will probably help us wrap up.

00:54:40:16 - 00:55:19:25
Evan
In such a mistake, you're logged, in the in the nature of the discourse of the game and the conflict that is present within the characters, in my opinion, they tell such a compelling and challenging story with really big stakes and strong tension, because I think they want to model the ability for us to talk about difficult, challenging things that we're going to experience in the world and give us a chance to shape conversations, avert like avert future crises that we may experience, and creating a fantasy world to do it.

00:55:19:25 - 00:55:50:23
Evan
That we can experiment and have good conversations with one another about the story that can add value to ourselves and society. They have set us up for this opportunity. But I think the nature of discourse, especially online discourse, creates a lot of challenges for us to actually be able to get to the meat of honest, personal conversation around some really important topics when it comes to individual morality, individual liberty, the environment, politics, power dynamics.

00:55:50:25 - 00:56:15:15
Evan
in your experience, what opportunities do you think this game provides us to be able to have those discussions? And what do you think needs to shift in our attitudes as a community to be able to really have those discussions well and not just devolve into some of the existing camps and patterns that, to be honest with you, I don't think have improved since 1997.

00:56:15:15 - 00:56:21:07
Evan
I think given a lot of ways, gotten more challenging there.

00:56:21:09 - 00:56:51:09
Clarke
It's hard. I mean, they are so much worse than they were in 1997. yeah, we're really online, you know, this is, very, I mean, just in the last decade, you know, I, I don't think that, you know, I saw a post and I agree with this that if lost, came out now, the discourse would be absolutely insufferable about it now.

00:56:51:16 - 00:57:46:09
Clarke
And it wasn't particularly sufferable then, but it would be even more insufferable now. And I don't have the power to fix any of that other than to engage in as much kind of conversation like this as possible. And, I have experimented personally with giving that kind of conversation space on my channel, on a few occasions. And every time I've done so, that video comes down and it because even if the conversation itself goes fine and it is well curated and all of the problematic elements get edited out, the discourse around it is, is unsalvageable, right.

00:57:46:09 - 00:58:09:21
Clarke
And so, you know, it's easy to say like, well, just don't pay attention or don't give attention to it. That's really hard. If it were easy, we wouldn't be doing it. It would have extinct it itself right now. It would have extinguished itself now. But like, so the fact that it has it means that it's, it's kind of here, to stay.

00:58:09:23 - 00:58:53:21
Clarke
I do think, though, that there is a difference between the way, for instance, just just talking about rebirth. I think the way that rebirth is actually perceived and the way that it is portrayed as being perceived on certain social media outlets, for instance, is very different if you go to your standard convention or if you talk to journalists, you know, and I'm not saying journalists have by nature better opinions than non journalists, but they are in this.

00:58:53:23 - 00:59:08:26
Clarke
They have this degree of inoculation from discourse because of, you know, a lot of the ethical constraints journalists have to have in order to work in the field.

00:59:08:26 - 00:59:13:15
Evan
And they have a responsibility for research and substantiation of the points.

00:59:13:17 - 00:59:47:20
Clarke
Absolutely. So, so there responsibility to be journalists and you mix that with like, I think the general consensus view of rebirth in like and like a convention among real people that are not terminally online and they're not in situations where all that one has to do to be given a stage is present information, and the validity of that information is not the metric by which it is seen.

00:59:47:22 - 01:00:19:02
Clarke
You know, like the other elements factor into how much a point is seen, to the point where it gives this inflated sense of value to absolutely insane takes, you know, and, and, and there there are, you know, just to just to be clear, there are upsides to that. but it's very clear what the downsides are.

01:00:19:05 - 01:00:46:11
Clarke
And at the end of the day, if you were to compare the terminally online view of rebirth to, I think, the real world world view of rebirth, most people don't think rebirth is about which which girl cloud falls in love with. That is a absolutely tertiary point. It is important, you know, and I think it's valid to talk about and express.

01:00:46:18 - 01:01:11:24
Clarke
But if there are, there is a lens that you can look at online discourse of Final Fantasy seven through and think it is an otome game. You think it is a dating sim, you know, and, most people don't see it that way out in the world. I also think Final Fantasy seven rebirth is the absolute, unadulterated frontrunner for the game of the year.

01:01:12:00 - 01:01:39:18
Clarke
At the Game Awards. And I say this as somebody that has relationships with the people that actually vote. not the not not not the Twitter ex, you know, you know, port of personalities, you know, none of that. Like the people that actually have a seat at the table. I think you will probably win game of the year, barring some insane right fielder.

01:01:39:18 - 01:02:08:19
Clarke
And you can, you can. And I'm sure there will be discourse about it if it wins it, that it was a slow year and that's why it won. But for the most part, the reflective experience of this game is that there is a lot of really valuable things that can come from it. There's a lot of really valuable discourse that can happen from it, and I think the best way, you know, to prove that is to engage in as much of that as possible.

01:02:08:21 - 01:02:10:06
Clarke
You know, how do we get.

01:02:10:06 - 01:02:30:28
Evan
Back to some of the modeling that the characters do in the game, though, where there's a there's conflict, there's disconnection, and there's repair that's modeled for us constantly in the dynamic of the characters. They apologize to each other, they ask good questions. They sit and they listen to each other. They disagree. They storm off, and they somehow find ways to come back together.

01:02:31:05 - 01:02:46:10
Evan
And so for community of people who have played the same game, allegedly to not connect with those themes of forgiveness and patience and really listening and understanding is is an interesting thing to experience for me.

01:02:46:13 - 01:03:13:07
Clarke
Absolutely. But, you know, like, one of the ways that, Final Fantasy seven in particular has us in conflict with a large corporate entity that maybe has its hands in several different pots, like, you know, a space division, you know, and now a social media division. They make cars and deal and energy, you know, was to was to bomb a reactor.

01:03:13:15 - 01:03:42:22
Clarke
So I don't think maybe Final Fantasy seven has the answers necessarily. how to deal with X. you know, so to speak. But, you know, it's a great point and it's true. Like, I wish we could. I wish we could just be the kind of charitable, that, that that say, Barrett is to cloud after cloud pushes Tifa into the live stream.

01:03:42:27 - 01:04:06:24
Clarke
You know, he he's firm, gives them a slap, but it's like, you can tell it's there's all this love and heart behind it. You know, there's this really rich tapestry and, you know, one of the ways that the like, for instance, we're talking to each other is we're talking to each other face to face. You know, we're not keyboard wearing that.

01:04:06:24 - 01:04:34:04
Clarke
So it's really hard for us to engage in that level of disconnected commentary with each other. And, you know, so all my advice to somebody is, hey, how would you like to be more like, you know, your heroes in this game or the people you look up to in this game is, you know, if if you're about to write a comment to somebody, think of them as a person, try and picture them, try and say like, hey, I'm standing face to face in front of this person.

01:04:34:06 - 01:05:01:25
Clarke
You know? And how, how am I going to act? That's different. And you'd be amazed at how how differently people act like and, you're right, this is a can of worms. I famously had one of the most divisive community members in in Final Fantasy seven, community like. And then this person, this person is like a legend, in terms of of pariah status.

01:05:01:25 - 01:05:19:17
Clarke
And I'm not going to say their name, but, you know, I had this idea like, hey, how are they going to act in person? Like if I give them the chance to, like, talk to this, you know, these people that they've actually said these mean things to. And they actually I have to look them in the face and do it.

01:05:19:17 - 01:05:43:29
Clarke
Are they going to act different? They absolutely did act different. You know, they absolutely did act different. And they were kind. There was forgiveness. There was charity ability. the moment face to face contact was gone. And, you know, the this person was disappointed again by the plot of the game. they, they resorted to the same behavior and actually escalated.

01:05:43:29 - 01:06:08:28
Clarke
It became even worse, you know, so it's a short term solution, but my advice again, to anybody is it's like before you hit enter, think of this as a person that you is sitting right in front of you and ask yourself, you know, realistically, do you have the ability to act differently under that circumstance? If you don't?

01:06:09:00 - 01:06:11:24
Clarke
you know, delete your account.

01:06:11:27 - 01:06:37:01
Wade
And what what a great, callback to what you said earlier. I mean, I'm, I'm currently, because of your words rethinking every time I've seen the figures in the dark robes throughout Final Fantasy seven rebirth and the way that Barret and others stands up for them because he associates cloud with them now, and he sees cloud in HD.

01:06:37:04 - 01:06:39:04
Clarke
Just so that's beautiful.

01:06:39:07 - 01:06:49:20
Wade
Just an amazing way of thinking about this community and other people. It's like I can think of them as just a faceless dark robe, or I can think of them as as an identity. Right?

01:06:49:23 - 01:06:52:28
Clarke
That's so good. Wade. I got goosebumps thinking.

01:06:52:29 - 01:07:05:02
Wade
From you, buddy. Like, I I'm just floored, and leveled by that, that that that is going to take me a while to really process and integrate into my life. So thank you. Thank you for that.

01:07:05:04 - 01:07:07:04
Clarke
Thank you, thank you.

01:07:07:06 - 01:07:27:09
Evan
Well, I think it's discussions that are worth having. It's it's easy to shy away from because it's just it's easier. But you talk about buried in cloud specific interactions. And I think one of the things that binds them together to me is that they journey together. They spend a lot of time together. So yeah, they had the rapport to be able to have that kind of relationship.

01:07:27:09 - 01:07:42:26
Evan
And if we don't take the time to journey with people together or at all, then we don't have the ability to have that level of intensity in the relationship with one another. You don't you don't need to hold each other accountable for things that people we don't know necessarily in the same way.

01:07:42:28 - 01:08:16:06
Clarke
The the amount of social problems that would be solved by exposure alone, you know, just by being in these being in other communities and understanding them, you know, and vice versa. it's it's it's so it's so concrete, the effects that, you know, traveling has on, on you, like, you, you know, before the stream, you talked about how impactful it was for you to travel to Japan, how eye opening that was.

01:08:16:08 - 01:08:41:06
Clarke
you know, I if you ever feel like you don't understand a person or you have some sort of bias or you're not sure whether a class of people, you know, should exist and they're not hurting anybody. The I think the best way that you can gain empathy is exposure and journey together. Force is exposure, you know?

01:08:41:06 - 01:09:00:15
Clarke
And so, having a story that allows exposure is an element in an empathy building and relationship building. You know, it's it's very Final Fantasy. And it's again, not not a way the Final Fantasy seven reinvent storytelling, but it is really impactful regardless.

01:09:00:18 - 01:09:26:24
Evan
It's a great third party space to have the discussion, though, in a way that isn't talking about any particular individual or circumstance. And yeah, maybe it alludes to it, but that's the nature and the possibility that exists within good storytelling. So I think it proves that they're telling a good and complex story, and that you can see yourself in it, and then it challenges you and gives you opportunities to open some doors that maybe weren't going to be present in other ways in your life.

01:09:27:00 - 01:09:37:19
Evan
Well, my question that kind of wraps up, is this how do you know so much about dog breeds you names like every dog breed? what's happening in the.

01:09:37:22 - 01:09:53:07
Clarke
I okay, so I, I believe it or not, I, I don't really know a lot about dog breeds. I do know a lot about cat breeds and cat species. because my family was instrumental.

01:09:53:10 - 01:09:55:18
Speaker 4
That's, that's another weird bit of Clark where.

01:09:55:23 - 01:10:24:23
Clarke
My family was instrumental in the creation of the Bengal, which is a, domesticated cat breed that, that that intermixed, Asian leopard cats, which are a different species of cat, with domestic cats there. And so, I grew up, my family had full blooded Asian leopard cats. We had ocelots, we had circles. We had all sorts of stuff.

01:10:24:26 - 01:10:49:10
Clarke
I have no, I guess every dog breed wrong. When I was playing the game, I before the ultra mania came out, the ultra mania came out and specified the dog breeds. and it turns out that I had none of them, right. Like, I thought the weird dog that Johnny was holding was like, like a beagle, but without the helmet.

01:10:49:17 - 01:11:10:02
Clarke
Turns out that that is a Shiba Inu, and I know that. Yeah. We're caught. Yeah, I thought it was a corgi. I guess that's a Shiba, you know, and then, or maybe even wrong, like, I maybe even remembering wrong. I am not an authority. Like, let this be the most important lesson. I am not an authority on dog breeds.

01:11:10:05 - 01:11:13:26
Clarke
I will let you down if you come to me for that.

01:11:13:28 - 01:11:16:29
Wade
But from a family of cat creators.

01:11:16:29 - 01:11:17:10
Clarke
Yeah, yeah.

01:11:17:11 - 01:11:18:29
Wade
That creators.

01:11:19:01 - 01:11:20:02
Clarke
Yeah, yeah.

01:11:20:04 - 01:11:26:27
Wade
Yeah. So Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy seven Real Reunion is going to be all about cats.

01:11:27:00 - 01:11:27:28
Clarke
And you will be.

01:11:28:04 - 01:11:28:24
Wade
Ready for it.

01:11:28:24 - 01:11:41:16
Clarke
So there is, there is good comedy in Hershey. Yeah, there's good cat lore and Final Fantasy seven. Like Hamaguchi, the director, his cat was a model for several of the cats.

01:11:41:19 - 01:11:45:20
Wade
like in the line of cats when they're walking in. Yes. Garden as his chapter.

01:11:45:22 - 01:11:53:01
Clarke
Started in remake. Yeah. One of them was there, but that cat model is reused in the evil home side quests.

01:11:53:03 - 01:11:55:24
Wade
Oh, amazing. Like with fluffy. Okay. That's amazing.

01:11:55:24 - 01:12:23:21
Clarke
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So there is that. Also, you know, one of the biggest mysteries of Final Fantasy seven is, is is read 13 is non-key spacey more feline or canine? And the answer is like, yes. Yeah, he's he's those things, you know, he's got that more scale he'd like there's interviews saying he's got a feline skeletal structures, but then he houses the moon, you know, and he's called the lab rat dog, you know?

01:12:23:21 - 01:12:24:14
Clarke
So it's like.

01:12:24:16 - 01:12:25:09
Wade
Brother.

01:12:25:11 - 01:12:26:06
Clarke
Yeah.

01:12:26:08 - 01:12:32:16
Wade
You know, the mysteries never end with Final Fantasy seven. And, we could, of course, talk more and more. And we will. Definitely.

01:12:32:21 - 01:12:44:10
Clarke
We didn't even get into religion when. You're right. I, I know, I mean, Lord, I'm an expert on Jewish mysticism.

01:12:44:11 - 01:12:45:05
Speaker 4
I knew we.

01:12:45:12 - 01:12:46:13
Clarke
Talked about.

01:12:46:15 - 01:12:47:13
Speaker 4
Not.

01:12:47:15 - 01:12:48:27
Clarke
Yeah, yeah.

01:12:48:29 - 01:13:05:14
Wade
That's it. So obviously we have to do it again. so. But yeah. Hey, again, thank you so much for being here with us today. This has just been an amazing conversation, and, I cannot thank you enough for the time. where can people find you?

01:13:05:16 - 01:13:31:18
Clarke
I have a YouTube channel. I make, a lot of preview content and, theory discussions, centered around the community. mostly Final Fantasy seven, but I, do, broadly talk about other RPGs. So, right now the mana series is, is something I'm focusing on. you know, I've certainly planting trees. Yeah. Planting trees.

01:13:31:21 - 01:14:01:13
Clarke
yeah. One tree planted is, partnered with square for Visions of Mana, which I think is, so, the best messaging they've ever done. so, yeah. but, I'm also on Twitch. I stream, Twitch.tv slash Schroeder's baby seal. and, you know, you can you can get me on on X if you really if you really want, I will warn you, some of my ex stuff is a little bit political.

01:14:01:15 - 01:14:29:00
Clarke
you know, and I try and, toe the line a little bit on YouTube. or if I'm not toeing the line and I am, doing political contact, I, I do market as such because I understand that, not everybody, wants to escape that way. And I support how hard life can be. And if you want, you know, specific kind of content for me, I try and have stuff for, you know, variety of people.

01:14:29:03 - 01:14:51:27
Wade
Well, we'll have all of that in the show notes. So if you're listening, you want to check out clerks stuff. look into the details just below. on a personal note, let me just say thank you. thank you. Not only for being here, but thank you for your friendship. I you, invited me, when I was out in LA to be a part of, content creator get together.

01:14:51:27 - 01:15:07:10
Wade
And, because of that, I have been connected not only with you, but with so many other people. And I do not say this lightly when I say, this channel, and I, it in many ways goes back to that one day. I am because you are. So thank you.

01:15:07:13 - 01:15:12:02
Clarke
Oh, thank you so much. It was my pleasure. My pleasure.

01:15:12:04 - 01:15:32:10
Wade
Well, thank you, everybody, for, for watching. And, stay tuned. because in the next week after this airs, we will be beginning our Final Fantasy seven rebirth lecture series. And, this episode kind of kicked us off on that. So thank you so much for that. With that, everybody, take it easy and we will see you next time.

01:15:32:10 - 01:15:35:05
Wade
Walked off. Hi, everyone.

01:15:35:07 - 01:15:37:05
Speaker 4
I.

01:16:04:06 - 01:16:25:19
Evan
Thanks so much everyone for tuning in. Thanks to Schrodinger's Baby Seal, a.k.a. Clark for the interview and all the kind words. We really appreciate it. Big thanks to Husky by the Geek for the intro song, and big thanks to Nick Smith for doing the graphics. We really appreciate it. You keep us looking good. And most of all this programing is brought to you by viewers like you.

01:16:25:20 - 01:16:32:16
Evan
Thanks so much for paying attention. Hope you have a great week and take care yourself and we'll see you next episode. Buh bye.