The ProfNoctis Weekly Show

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:18:22
Evan
Hey everyone, I'm Evan and welcome to another episode of the Prof Knock to show. We are so excited for our interview with the one the only bio rock since today by our access provided some awesome, awesome perspective, especially given their background as a therapist. So we hit on some topics that we haven't even talked about yet on the prof not to show.

00:00:18:22 - 00:00:23:25
Evan
And so we're so excited for it. Wait, what did you think about it and how can people support the channel.

00:00:23:27 - 00:00:43:07
Wade
You're in for a real treat. Today is what I, what I would say. So like listen along and maybe take notes. I know a lot of your note takers, and, like, I had to reflect on this interview a great deal afterwards. A lot of you have asked how you can continue to support the show. Make sure that you are liking and subscribing and commenting on all of our videos over on YouTube.

00:00:43:07 - 00:00:59:26
Wade
And also, if you haven't checked out our audio only podcast over on Apple Podcasts and on Spotify and wherever you get your podcast, make sure you do that. Every rating, every comment, every review helps us. So we would really appreciate it if you did that. And with that, it's time for class.

00:00:59:26 - 00:01:03:03
Evan
Let's go.

00:01:27:17 - 00:01:42:16
Wade
Hey, everybody, and welcome back to the professor. Not this weekly show. even though we have kind of deviated from the weekly format, we're still calling it weekly show. But today, we are really excited because not only am I here with, co-host Evan say, hey, Evan.

00:01:42:19 - 00:01:47:16
Evan
Hey, everybody. Great to see you. Well, Great to be seen. See, I don't to be seen.

00:01:47:17 - 00:01:49:11
James
I, I.

00:01:49:13 - 00:02:02:10
Wade
To see or be seen. Right now. Literary almost. But not only are we continue our conversation in our lecture series on Final Fantasy seven rebirth, but today we are excited to be joined by the one and only bio.

00:02:02:10 - 00:02:03:27
James
Roxas. Yeah. Hey.

00:02:04:00 - 00:02:05:06
Wade
How are you doing?

00:02:05:08 - 00:02:08:14
James
Well, thanks for inviting me. I'm so. I'm so honored.

00:02:08:16 - 00:02:31:08
Wade
Oh, no. The honor is ours. everybody of you, are just getting to know. Bio. Roxas bio has been a, I would say fairly prolific creator in not just the Final Fantasy community, but especially the Kingdom Hearts community. that's kind of how, how you got your start, right? through Kingdom Hearts and you've kind of gone to other things as well.

00:02:31:10 - 00:02:32:10
James
Yeah, definitely.

00:02:32:13 - 00:02:37:15
James
Kingdom Hearts is my bread and butter. Yeah. That's they've if they have any connection, they're like.

00:02:37:15 - 00:02:40:12
James
Oh yeah, the Kingdom Hearts guy.

00:02:40:14 - 00:03:02:21
Wade
The Kingdom Hearts guy. But but the thing that I love about your Kingdom Hearts content is that it goes all over the place. You've got, battle, primers and stuff guides for that sort of stuff. But more recently you've really delved into the psychology of it. We're definitely going to get into that. so anyway, everybody welcome bio Roxas to the show.

00:03:02:21 - 00:03:24:03
Wade
And we're going to, continue with our rebirth lecture series as we go. But before we get into that, we really want to get to know bio Roxas and hear a little bit of his story. So, bio introduce yourself to everybody. what do we need to know about you? Kingdom hearts psychology. Yeah. who is bio Roxas?

00:03:24:05 - 00:03:26:06
James
So, yeah, I, I originally.

00:03:26:06 - 00:03:41:12
James
Got my start. Like I said, with Kingdom Hearts, King of Hearts was coming out, and I was like, oh, this is really cool. I was super excited about this. And there was one subset of of the, the combat that nobody talked about. And I don't know if you guys know too much about Kingdom Hearts or Kingdom Hearts, mechanics.

00:03:41:15 - 00:03:51:05
James
but there's this one, system I just called the form change system, and no one talked about it. And I was like, I really like this. I'm going to blab about this for two years.

00:03:51:12 - 00:03:55:10
James
That's what I did. and so I originally got my start.

00:03:55:10 - 00:04:14:02
James
Yeah. With, like, combat analysis. I just really like to, talk about, like, what makes combat feel good in the game. And I think that that also, like, kind of lends over to Final Fantasy seven remake and rebirth with their combat system. but, yeah, I just love to talk about, like, why does this feel good?

00:04:14:02 - 00:04:36:21
James
Why does this flow so well? Or like, what can what can be done better? and so I really like that. And then at some point, after four years, I was like, I probably talked enough about combat and Kingdom Hearts. Let's let's jump to other things. And, in the time that I was, you know, making content, I was going to school for psychology, clinical mental health counseling, to be specific.

00:04:36:21 - 00:04:49:03
James
And, so I had always had this thing of, everyone call sort like this sunny sunshine boy. if you've been seeing to, everyone's like, oh, he's happy go lucky. He's so happy. And it always.

00:04:49:03 - 00:04:51:17
James
Like, hit me. Like, it's kind of weird.

00:04:51:17 - 00:05:12:23
James
Because there's definitely moments in Kingdom Hearts where that that mask flips. And, it was never really talked about. And so I really wanted to talk about like, okay, there's yes, he is happy and that's, that's something that's good. And it can be positive. But also like there's that pressure in that, that responsibility of having to be happy for other people.

00:05:12:23 - 00:05:29:20
James
And I think that's really what was like the focal point for Sora. And so I wanted to dive into like, okay, well, I think a lot of people feel this pressure with, you know, having to be happy for other people or wanting to not be a burden to other people. And so let me talk about, you know, the psychology of that.

00:05:29:20 - 00:05:34:18
James
And then that video like, skyrocketed. And now I'm doing.

00:05:34:18 - 00:05:35:24
James
Both, covert.

00:05:35:24 - 00:05:42:14
James
Mechanics and psychology. So it's been yeah, very interesting hodgepodge of like two completely different topics.

00:05:42:16 - 00:06:06:29
Wade
But what's interesting for me is that the psychology stuff is where I first encountered you. I had seen you on Twitter and stuff, and I knew that you were part of kind of the Square Enix fandom, of sorts. And I was like, okay, well, he does more Kingdom Hearts stuff, but when, when I saw you put out the psychology of Sora, that's that was the first real time that I sat down and really watch something that you had done.

00:06:06:29 - 00:06:34:17
Wade
And it was it was amazing. In fact, if anybody has not seen the Psychology of Sora video or any of the psychology series, especially for those that are fans of this channel, these are like required reading for you. they are phenomenal and very well researched and what I appreciated most about this is you speak as one that knows, from a clinical standpoint, this isn't armchair psychology.

00:06:34:17 - 00:06:56:00
Wade
This is like somebody that has done the study, done the research, written some thesis, and, that to me, you have a real mastery in the way that you explained it. So that was illuminating for me. And I'll be honest with you, I haven't always been the biggest Kingdom Hearts fan. I, I didn't love Kingdom Hearts one, Kingdom hearts two.

00:06:56:00 - 00:07:12:19
Wade
I loved the rocks as part. And then. Okay, there was some stuff in the middle that I liked, but honestly, Kingdom Hearts three is my favorite of the three. Now I say I'm not a big Kingdom Hearts fan. I've played one, two, and three, but I didn't play the fraction games or any of the other stuff. but like one, two and three main line.

00:07:12:19 - 00:07:14:01
Wade
That's that's what I mean about.

00:07:14:04 - 00:07:16:20
James
Kingdom Hearts three. Like really confusing for, you.

00:07:16:22 - 00:07:17:09
Wade
Know.

00:07:17:09 - 00:07:20:29
James
It really wasn't it really wasn't.

00:07:21:02 - 00:07:30:15
Wade
and I think that's why I give grace to people that play remake and rebirth, but they haven't played og FF7 because I'm like, hey, that's me with like Kingdom Hearts, like it's mystery.

00:07:30:15 - 00:07:33:23
James
And it's okay. Yeah, I guess, yeah.

00:07:33:26 - 00:07:40:28
James
You know, hearts three is was such a, yeah. It's fascinating how the response to that was, because it was just this.

00:07:41:00 - 00:07:41:17
James
Big.

00:07:41:18 - 00:07:58:05
James
Undertaking of like, we have like 17 years, I think, or 16 years of, of story that we need to tie this up all neatly. And there's so many expectations and things that people want to see. And obviously we're not going to get to all of that. yeah. And it's very interesting.

00:07:58:08 - 00:08:32:02
Wade
Oh, it's it's phenomenal stuff. But the the thing about all of it was having watched the psychology stuff and really kind of, taking an interest in you, I just got to say, getting to meet you and be around you at Pax East was like a phenomenal thing. So everybody, we got to meet each other in person in Boston, that Pax East, for this convention and, spent the better part of the weekend, just kind of hanging out, going to panels and stuff and, you you are as legit in person as you are, in the videos.

00:08:32:02 - 00:08:33:09
Wade
And I just absolutely love that.

00:08:33:09 - 00:08:38:21
James
So massive appreciation. your guys. Yeah, that.

00:08:38:21 - 00:08:47:04
James
Pax is great. It was a really, really fun time. That was the first time I'd gone to like, any, any, like, in-person event. So it was super fun to meet you and everyone.

00:08:47:04 - 00:08:54:26
James
Else for sure. For sure. So you are our first VTuber. Yeah. Thank you, thank you. Yeah.

00:08:54:26 - 00:09:20:03
Evan
We have interviewed, so thank you. You've paved the way for all the other VTubers. Now they won't be scared to come on the show. so I do have some questions around how you kind of got started as a VTuber, because for some of our folks, they turned it on, and here we are. We have a character, and we're talking with you, and it's interactive, but it's new for me, this is probably the most I've interacted with, the kind of someone for the VTuber community.

00:09:20:06 - 00:09:21:09
James
What is it?

00:09:21:12 - 00:09:24:13
Evan
How does it work and how did you get into it?

00:09:24:15 - 00:09:30:05
James
Okay, so, I don't really know. Okay. I'm just kidding. I just woke up.

00:09:30:05 - 00:09:31:01
Evan
And one day.

00:09:31:01 - 00:09:36:12
James
I was like, yeah, I was here before. so,

00:09:36:14 - 00:09:37:16
James
VTuber is.

00:09:37:17 - 00:09:38:28
James
Like, I.

00:09:38:28 - 00:09:57:20
James
Think it stands for, like, virtual, like tubing. and so the idea is that you have like, a virtual avatar that that takes the place of views that, maybe it's more emotive or, covers up some privacy for me in particular. when I first started using a YouTube model, my wife was like, well, not my wife.

00:09:57:21 - 00:10:10:03
James
Me and my wife were kind of uncomfortable having, like, my face and everything online, especially like having our, two kids and, like, I don't know, people are weird online.

00:10:10:06 - 00:10:11:25
James
Yeah. so.

00:10:11:27 - 00:10:36:21
James
Not everyone, but some people, like, can get a little weird. And so, when I was, like, thinking about trying to branch in the streaming and, and getting more serious about that and being online, I was like, I need let me, let me try this viewing thing because that was super new and, super innovative. And so for me, a lot of like, the VTuber thing is just privacy, though, now that I'm going to like in-person events, I don't know.

00:10:36:28 - 00:10:38:19
James
I don't know. It's, it.

00:10:38:19 - 00:11:07:20
James
First started as privacy. Now it's just kind of been like, a mainstay of the channel. and the way that it works, actually, I use an iPhone. and so it just captures my face. And so any, like, faces that I make usually can capture, and. Yeah, it's, it's really, really cool technology. I know there's, like, a whole, like, community of VTubers and, like, they have their own subculture now and each like, there's, like companies that that have branded VTubers and it's a whole thing.

00:11:07:20 - 00:11:09:25
James
It's wild.

00:11:09:28 - 00:11:26:23
Evan
Do you find that it impacted the way that you present information and how you're able to interact with folks on the channel? And is there a difference between doing it in like a pre form video, like on YouTube and with Twitch, when you're maybe like live streaming, how does that kind of interact together?

00:11:26:25 - 00:11:53:08
James
so, I, I definitely saw like a huge shift on the channel, on Twitch when I started using a V2 model. Because one of the things that, I've been streaming, I think almost as long as I've made content, but I've always been like a faceless voice, but, like, talks over stuff. and so for streaming, it really shifted that dynamic of like, oh, people can actually see me now and see me react to their comments.

00:11:53:10 - 00:12:20:09
James
oh, yeah. In a much more like, physical way. And so, a lot of people do that differently. Some people use, the copy and g tubers where like it's a static 2D image that like, reacts and moves around. and I think just in terms of, like from a, engagement standpoint, like having something on screen that people can interact with just is always, not always better, but usually is better.

00:12:20:11 - 00:12:40:26
James
and so that was a big, big reason why I wanted to use something. and then on the channel, I've only used it a couple of times. and people have been pretty receptive to it, the first few times that I had it because when I, when I do like these random, like, off the cuff videos where I was just kind of yapping and not really, really have a script or any like points to make on screen.

00:12:40:28 - 00:12:58:05
James
I was like, man, I don't want to just have like gameplay playing because that's like people are going to click off about, and so I was like, well, what? Like I have this speed to model. What if I just, use that? and so, it helped with. Yeah, definitely helps with engagement just because people, you know, I can see somebody.

00:12:58:08 - 00:13:05:09
Wade
Now, I've got to ask, did you model this after success, or is that also just, like, coincidental?

00:13:05:11 - 00:13:07:00
James
kind of. So my.

00:13:07:00 - 00:13:28:20
James
My channel brand has, it first started as, this crowd, that's on one of the key blades. So that was my first brand. and then as I moved into, like, kind of making more content, I had a, an artist friend that made, like, a Roxas character, and they just, like, sketch that Roxas.

00:13:28:20 - 00:13:42:05
James
And I was like, oh, that's cool. I'm going to like, I'd love to use that as my channel. Like, every iteration that I've made of, like the new profile picture, I've, I've tried to, like, shifted away from Roxas because I don't want to get sued.

00:13:42:07 - 00:13:44:24
James
Yeah, sure. so and I mean.

00:13:44:26 - 00:14:10:29
James
Square Enix is is very kind. they like they've they've partnered with me and I've worked with them and there's never been an issue, which is like like a that's great. but I've always like, tried to be very particular in how I design the VTuber and the characters. because I, I definitely with an in like, xeroxes any blond character with like this outfit is going to look like Roxas.

00:14:11:01 - 00:14:12:21
James
So it's like there's.

00:14:12:21 - 00:14:26:18
James
Only so much I can do. I think this actually, this coat is modeled after, but Kingdom Hearts, they came out, they did this like streetwear, line up. And so it's actually like I think it's modeled after like, the streetwear Roxas design.

00:14:26:21 - 00:14:28:11
James
Oh that's cool. Oh, cool. Yeah.

00:14:28:11 - 00:14:51:25
James
And then I have like a little satchel that has donuts, which is, which is just a dumb, even my community. and then I have like, some like, like, swords and little knickknacks on my belt. So, like, one is the Final Fantasy 14 mother crystal one a Keyblade. I think the others are like clouds. Buster sword and I think it's a near autonomous item and a weapon.

00:14:52:02 - 00:14:52:20
Wade
Oh, cool. Oh.

00:14:52:20 - 00:14:53:18
James
That's awesome. Yeah.

00:14:53:18 - 00:15:01:03
James
So I had this idea of, like, I'm going to add, like, a little badge every game I play on the server. And then I didn't keep up with it.

00:15:01:06 - 00:15:01:25
James
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:15:01:26 - 00:15:03:21
Evan
Little like merit badges on your sash.

00:15:03:28 - 00:15:07:09
James
Yeah. Right. I was like, I see, so cool I yeah I kind of dropped it.

00:15:07:11 - 00:15:20:09
Evan
Oh hey listen they're they're, they're, they look great as we kind of transition into your work in academic life and in professional life. I also know that you recently had a job transition. How was that going?

00:15:20:09 - 00:15:51:15
James
Feeling good? Yeah. I don't know how much I can talk about it, but, so I originally. Yeah, when I went to school, I went for my, my master's and, mental health counseling. I got my LPC, which is like a licensed professional counselor. so, licensed. Sorry. and then when I graduated, I actually went into, substance abuse treatment or a substance misuse treatment, rather, and so I did that for a long time and then just recently shifted to.

00:15:53:19 - 00:15:57:22
James
I guess the best way to put it is like government contract.

00:15:57:22 - 00:16:00:13
James
Work, I think. I, I don't know, like.

00:16:00:15 - 00:16:09:19
James
I don't know exactly what I can share and not share, but yeah. So I've shifted away from substance misuse to, like military stuff, actually. So that's very interesting.

00:16:09:21 - 00:16:30:12
Wade
Gotcha. Well, I'm grateful that you mention all of this stuff because for the purposes of our conversation today, what it does is it does grant a lot of legitimacy and credibility to a lot of the things that you say, you know, there's a lot of people online that, you know, have nice ideas and theories and stuff, but to hear somebody that's like, hey, I'm living this, right?

00:16:30:12 - 00:16:45:15
Wade
Like, this is clinical. There's a lot of stuff. So what I'm trying to say and speak about things, this isn't just like just a random thought, but it is grounded in some study and some research. So I really appreciate you sharing that aspect of things.

00:16:45:17 - 00:16:47:20
James
Yeah. And I think we get,

00:16:47:23 - 00:16:53:09
James
Especially in this day and age with like social media and just how fast conversations happen.

00:16:54:10 - 00:17:14:21
James
There's a lot of, decisions and stuff that we make very emotionally where we, we feel a certain way. Right? And, and we think, oh, like, I feel this. So this must be right. Right. It's like, postmodern, I think viewpoint, which is completely valid. but I think sometimes we, we make claims based off of those feelings.

00:17:14:21 - 00:17:20:28
James
Then then kind of don't have a basis in a lot of things.

00:17:21:01 - 00:17:22:21
James
And so.

00:17:22:23 - 00:17:41:10
James
one of the things that I like to do with my videos is, pull apart these video game characters that we've grown up with because I think it sets up a really interesting, conversation about, like, what are why does so many people resonate with these characters and what's you know, what's so special about them? Yeah.

00:17:41:13 - 00:18:11:27
James
and not to I and I try to be very particular like very pointed with this of, yes, I have a clinical background and I do have, training, but also like the things that people experience and that they've learned through these characters are not invalid because I've given a different viewpoint. and I think that's like something that's very important to note is, yeah, I, I, I do have background, but also I don't want my word to come across this fact, because we all have different experiences.

00:18:11:27 - 00:18:30:06
James
These characters are written in a way that we can, relate and connect to on different fundamental levels. And so just because me as a counselor, I like just because I come up and say like, oh, this is what I think, I don't want that to invalidate like what someone else relates to or has found through characters.

00:18:30:08 - 00:18:46:12
Wade
Thank you for saying that. On this channel, we talk about lenses, that we see different games and characters through and, and so the lens that you offer definitely offers some, some foundation, some grounding and stuff that I appreciate you saying it doesn't have to be the only one. And so thank you for that.

00:18:46:14 - 00:18:46:27
James
Yeah.

00:18:46:29 - 00:18:55:11
James
Because I, I definitely don't want it to come across as like, oh well, like you feel that way about this character. I that's like that's not that's not right. This is this is the real thing. Right?

00:18:55:11 - 00:18:56:18
James
Because that's definitely.

00:18:56:18 - 00:18:58:28
James
Not what I want to get across. Yeah.

00:18:58:29 - 00:19:02:16
Wade
But when it comes to theories, obviously yours are right. And everybody.

00:19:02:16 - 00:19:05:20
James
Else. Yeah. No. Yeah. Exactly. Thank thank you.

00:19:05:23 - 00:19:35:19
Evan
I think you have a very invitational style in the way that you present the information. You're inviting everyone to look at this psychological concept and then apply it to the character. Right. It's not this is not the definitive conclusion for why they would. But we're trying to do is spark curiosity about maybe why they make the decisions that they do, and then maybe take the extra step to spark some curiosity about why we make the decisions that we make, and why we feel the way that we feel.

00:19:35:19 - 00:20:01:04
Evan
And Wade talks a lot about that in the lecture place, and in some of the kind of character breakdowns of why do we think they made this decision? How do you think that impacts you personally? And it takes it kind of in that application, the direction of application, making it real in our lives. Coming off of the screen, we have a segment called Fantasy to Reality, where we take things from the screen in the page, and we try and take the ideas and the concepts and make them more real.

00:20:01:10 - 00:20:22:18
Evan
And I think that your videos really do that for others. How did you first find out that that would be a good format to do that? Like why did you start making videos about that? What was the transition from? I'm making animation videos and about battle concepts, and I know you do it for Final Fantasy 14 to I'm going to start doing some of these psychology ones.

00:20:22:18 - 00:20:28:05
Evan
Was there a moment that kind of flip, that switch? What did it look like?

00:20:28:08 - 00:20:55:00
James
I okay, so I traced it back to like a couple podcasts. I was on, in the Kingdom Hearts community where I kept ragging on not ragging, but just kept going on about, you know, everyone thinks or is super happy, but, like, there's something deeper there. so it's always been an idea I wanted to do. and I think I want to say, like, writing it took like a year because me in a me and thought bubble, YouTube.

00:20:55:01 - 00:21:13:18
James
Who is the other person on that video? me and him got connected. Like, I don't even know, but I, I'm pretty sure it was like a year, six months or eight months where we were, it was on and off of like, oh, we'll just kind of like chat about this or write down some ideas. And, you know, eventually we'll get this big video out.

00:21:13:20 - 00:21:30:15
James
and the closer that we got to, like, getting a fully formed script, the faster that kind of got. and then eventually I was like, okay, I want to pull the trigger on this. I also, like, have learned a lot about, like, what goes into making this kind of video. And I really think it can be helpful.

00:21:30:18 - 00:21:51:24
James
And then, I had some thoughts of like, okay, well, if this is received well, then maybe I'll do some more. And then the the response to it really was like, okay, this is this is helpful. This is something that I want to like give to others. And it was actually a moment where we were, we were cutting all together because there was a bunch of different trains of thought.

00:21:51:27 - 00:22:09:00
James
So there was a section where we kind of went game by game and we're like, here's all the things about the web. And then there was a second section where both of us were trying to like, wrap up our thoughts on it. And I remember I was like, I'm going to put all my thoughts together in one part, and I'm going to let, John, thought bubble put his stuff together.

00:22:09:00 - 00:22:30:11
James
And he was like, well, well, hold on. Like let's this is like one very I think it's very powerful at the end, where it's just like reminding people, like, if you relate to Sora, like, you were not a burden. on that was like a really big focal point of the video. And I just, like, had thrown that into that and my, my section, he was like, well, like, this is really important.

00:22:30:15 - 00:22:52:01
James
Like, I think people can learn from this. Let's, let's like make this its own thing. and so that was kind of what turned turn the gears into not just a one off video on psychology and why this is about Sora, but shifting the focus of like, okay, how can I use these characters to either give messages to people or to help them learn something?

00:22:52:03 - 00:23:02:04
James
and so I after that and after the response, I was like, okay, I want to do more of this. I want to take these characters and, and get something across with each one.

00:23:02:06 - 00:23:22:14
Evan
Yeah. You say you like to pull apart the characters, right? And examine kind of some of the moving parts and get past what's on the surface, maybe even in the games of the characters. And that, you know, an important concept for our lives as well. How do you think taking that kind of lens and applying it to video game characters helps us as individuals?

00:23:22:18 - 00:23:50:17
Evan
Maybe slow down a little bit in life? to be able to understand ourselves better and understand the world around us. Because I want to get into some of these videos that you made, especially around, the psychology of cloud that Wade is really interested in talking about. And, everything. But let's like, as a base concept, what does it look like to examine a video game character that way, and how does it help us as people slow down and begin to understand ourselves and others better?

00:23:50:19 - 00:24:16:06
James
I think, the format that I've, I finally kind of landed on with the series is going just step by step through the the journey of the character. and I'm so, like, learning and I don't think I've, honed it quite yet. Sure. but I think one part that kind of helps is, just. Yeah, taking a step through each game of, like, okay, here are the moments that we see where, you know, we see something, right?

00:24:16:06 - 00:24:37:27
James
I can maybe point out some things here. and then I'll keep it moving. And then at the end, they'll kind of tie everything up. and I think what that does is, is it helps people as they're playing a game, start like picking up moments. So a lot of times I feel like we get we get caught up in the emotion, in the pacing of a game that we we start, like, just looking for the next big moment, right?

00:24:37:27 - 00:25:02:16
James
Like it's. Oh, you know, it's been a couple side quests. I can't wait until the next big battle. Right. and, and kind of shifting that to like, you know, they're, they're these really interesting character moments that, you know, if we're just looking for the next big action sequence we're going to miss. I think the best example comes from some of the Final Fantasy games, like, Final Fantasy 14 or 16 have really, really, really good character writing.

00:25:02:18 - 00:25:21:29
James
and I think if you're a lot of people can get caught up in like, oh, these are your side quests. And it's like, no, like these, these side quests and these, these slower moments are the are the important pieces. to me, like, because you get to see that thinking, you get to see the like, the side talk.

00:25:21:29 - 00:25:22:07
James
Right?

00:25:22:07 - 00:25:23:10
James
Like, yeah.

00:25:23:13 - 00:25:37:26
James
I don't know. I think that's really, for me at least, like showcasing like, oh, here's like a little side conversation, or like, here's what happens if I'm getting particular in the weeds. that's kind of crazy.

00:25:37:28 - 00:25:38:18
James
Yeah.

00:25:38:21 - 00:26:08:06
James
There's parts in Final Fantasy seven, right? Where, like, cloud, has, like, different voice lines if you talk to people multiple times. Right. And so, like, picking those out and showing like, oh, hey, here's a piece of like Cloud's personality that we don't really see unless we're, you know, taking our time and and going through it. And so I think hopefully by, kind of showcasing and diving deep into characters, it helps people look at gaming differently and not just as like, we need the next big spectacle.

00:26:08:06 - 00:26:13:25
James
But, you know, I really enjoy these smaller these, you know, slower moments.

00:26:13:27 - 00:26:15:09
James
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

00:26:15:12 - 00:26:44:29
Wade
Rebirth to me. yeah. Perfectly illustrates kind of what you're saying. One of my favorite scenes in the entire game is the calm at sunset at Costa del Sol, when it's just like the sunset on the beach, and you just have this very quiet moment after the spectacle where you can spend as much time or as little as you want on that beach, talking to characters and just I think I did photo mode for like two hours, on the beach, but that's that's my journey.

00:26:45:02 - 00:26:47:27
Wade
and maybe my addiction. I'm not sure, but.

00:26:47:29 - 00:26:49:27
James
it's what I love, but.

00:26:49:27 - 00:26:58:16
Wade
It is moments like that where it gives you a time to reflect and to pause. And I think that you are able to draw those things out so well

00:26:58:16 - 00:27:14:03
Evan
All right, everybody, it's that time in the episode where we get to know each other a little bit better and take a stretch. I know that your arms don't work. fire! We found that out, but maybe we can do next stretches in honor. Here we go. There we go. There we go. That's great. That's great. This is our mini game, stretch break.

00:27:14:03 - 00:27:17:25
Evan
But before we do, we got to hit that music. So what? Two, three. Bump bump.

00:27:17:25 - 00:27:20:01
Wade
Bump bump bump bump bump bump bump.

00:27:20:03 - 00:27:39:15
Evan
Bump bump bump bump. Well done, well done. Thanks everybody for participating on. It's perfect. I have our bingo wheel of vulnerability. Wait, has our geek therapy question cards that we're going to use to get to know one another a little bit. So bio, you get to tell us when to stop. So here's a little audio preview for the people.

00:27:39:21 - 00:27:51:03
Evan
And are you ready to say stop. Yes. All right here we go. Tell me when I get that. Wow okay there it is. Oh we didn't get our numbers. Oh oh wait, wait.

00:27:51:05 - 00:27:52:04
Wade
Oh, I guess the number.

00:27:52:11 - 00:27:52:24
Evan
I saw.

00:27:52:24 - 00:27:56:07
Wade
It means nothing, but we. Sometimes we have to start over. Right?

00:27:56:09 - 00:27:57:20
James
Okay. Take two.

00:27:57:20 - 00:28:05:01
Evan
Actually, you guys never know the beginning again. I saw the number. I know the number. I will not guess. I will abstain this episode.

00:28:05:04 - 00:28:05:14
James
What is it?

00:28:05:14 - 00:28:12:05
Evan
Go up to one through 50. So listener guess the number one through 50. Wait, what's your.

00:28:12:07 - 00:28:12:21
Wade
12.

00:28:12:28 - 00:28:14:29
James
Okay. 4045.

00:28:15:02 - 00:28:26:18
Evan
The number was 18. Eight, ten. So nice. So okay, I saw it and I fell. I feel terrible, I've ruined the integrity of the very prison that I invented to trap us in.

00:28:26:25 - 00:28:31:02
Wade
At least you abstained from the guessing because you really could have taken it and run with the devil.

00:28:31:03 - 00:28:33:27
James
Yeah. I mean, like, oh, no, I'm great. Wow.

00:28:34:00 - 00:28:40:11
Evan
Then it wouldn't have meant as much. You know, I know there's an ethical lesson in there somewhere. So 18 question number 18. What do we have?

00:28:40:11 - 00:29:14:19
Wade
Wade an 1112 and we've got 18. There we go. Okay. So here it is from Geek Therapy card deck. It says the topic is video games. there's like five different topics. So that's not coincidental. identify five events or mechanics in video games that you found frustrating and recall how you overcame those difficulties. How did these relate to similar or different, compare and contrast with real life scenarios?

00:29:14:22 - 00:29:33:20
Wade
for example, when we become frustrated in real life, how can we use the lessons we've learned in games to help us overcome these difficulties? So identify it says five events. I'm going to just say one one or no sense for five. this is not an hour long session. but what is an event or a mechanic in a video game that you found frustrating?

00:29:33:22 - 00:29:38:23
Wade
And how did you overcome those difficulties and relate it to real life fire?

00:29:38:23 - 00:29:43:14
Evan
We'll let you go first as our guest, unless you would like more time, and then you can kick it back to work. Yes.

00:29:43:17 - 00:30:07:22
James
I okay, so this was, Yeah. So I love this game called Final Fantasy 14. I don't know if you guys have heard of it. but there is, there's end game content in that game in the form of raids like Savage Raids, Ultimate raids. There's a whole tier system. so it starts out with, like, normal dungeons that you do through the story, and then you fight a boss, which is called a trial.

00:30:07:24 - 00:30:27:16
James
but then after you beat the story, you have what's called an extreme trial, which is like a harder version of the trial. And then you also have this separate thing called, rates. There's normal raids, there's savage raids, and then there's ultimate raids, which are kind of like boss rushes that are like half an hour long. so there's a lot of tiers to them.

00:30:27:23 - 00:30:46:28
James
And, when I first started in the game, I was not great at the game. And so I'd always, get really frustrated and, like, think that, like, my, my static hated me and, felt like they were going to kick me out. And I got a lot of, like, negative self-talk. Right? And so I was like, oh my God, this is, this is this is the day that they're going to kick me out because my numbers are too low.

00:30:46:28 - 00:31:05:12
James
I keep messing up mechanics. And, and so yeah, I was like a really, really like tough point of like, I really enjoy this. This is supposed to be fun. But I'm also like, I have all this, like negative self-talk and all of this doubt. Right. And so, I, I don't know, I, I eventually got over that.

00:31:05:15 - 00:31:25:26
James
But, you know, like talking to my static can be like, I'm so sorry and like, kind of, I guess, like getting that evidence back from them of like, oh, like what you're telling me. Kind of great. Going to like the conversation about core beliefs and stuff of like, I was continue to get evidence that, like, my static was not going to kick me out and that they, like, didn't hate me.

00:31:26:02 - 00:31:47:21
James
And so that that suddenly started like shifting, my thoughts right, of like, okay, maybe I'm not a failure. Maybe I'm not, like awful. And so it help to like, shift that to, a very distressing thing in the game to like a very, like fun thing of like, oh okay. Like I'm learning, right? I can and give myself some grace and a little bit of, I'm going to take the stress off.

00:31:47:24 - 00:31:50:14
Wade
Wow. We should have let him go last.

00:31:50:14 - 00:31:55:11
Evan
Yeah. Sorry. That's a really good answer. Whoops.

00:31:55:13 - 00:31:57:00
Wade
Evan, what about you?

00:31:57:03 - 00:32:26:25
Evan
oh. For me, I think the most one of the most frustrating game mechanics of all time as it's gotten better. But it's also we just don't do it anymore. You'll notice that less and less in games is escort quests, where you have a special little follower or helper that has to, like, be somebody that journeys with you and you got to get them from point A to point B, and they either walk too slow, too fast, they get in the wrong fights like it's better if they're invincible, right?

00:32:26:25 - 00:32:46:22
Evan
Like it's not a big deal because they're like, okay, you know what? I'll get there eventually. But when you have to protect them and they just keep growing everything around you. Right. and so I think, drew, I think for me, I'm going to compare it to, you know, those days when you're just in a bad mood.

00:32:46:24 - 00:32:47:18
Wade
sure.

00:32:47:20 - 00:33:16:21
Evan
But it's probably from something that's not necessarily related to what you're dealing with, you know, actually in different situations. But you don't want to apply your stinky attitude to people who don't deserve it. You know what I mean? and I think the termination and the installation and the focus that it takes to actually complete the escort quest, where you're paying extra attention to make sure that the the follower isn't outgrowing somebody, or if they get into a fight that you're quickly there to protect them.

00:33:16:23 - 00:33:36:25
Evan
I think for me, it's internal management of recognizing that what I'm escorting is the version of me that people deserve to interact with, not my frustrations with an unconnected situation. And so the same attention that I'm going to pay to my escort character, I'm going to pay to my own attitude, actions, and the way that I treat people.

00:33:36:25 - 00:33:49:23
Evan
I'm going to be a little more vigilant than I would normally than just running around in the game, because people deserve my best. And so I'm going to put forth the energy and the intention to give that to them, because they deserve it and out of respect for them. So that's that's.

00:33:49:23 - 00:34:10:06
Wade
Me. Another good answer. Well, don't even, for me, mine's going to come from Final Fantasy 15. This is a, I tell people this is a seven out of ten game. That's a 10 to 10 out of ten in my heart. But there is one really frustrating thing about this game. And people in the comments will be like, no, there's no pressure or anything.

00:34:10:06 - 00:34:30:21
Wade
Well, listen, it made me a doctor, so I'm fine. in the game there was this choice to button map the action button on to the same button as the jump button. Okay, so when you go to talk to people or pick up an item, you almost always will jump.

00:34:30:21 - 00:34:31:22
Evan
First.

00:34:31:25 - 00:34:34:24
Wade
Because you haven't quite targeted it just right.

00:34:34:24 - 00:34:46:22
Wade
I'm trying to go around and play the game or whatever, hundred percent that and all this stuff, and I just constantly am jumping. Well, one day in class, my students were sharing this frustration. They're like, why can't I just pick up things without jumping?

00:34:46:26 - 00:34:55:26
Wade
Why can't I do this? And y'all, like, I had this like moment of like, we can turn this. And I said, that's the traditional

00:34:55:26 - 00:35:02:16
Wade
greeting. Before you talk to people, you have to jump. And like they of course knew that it was nonsense, but it

00:35:02:16 - 00:35:03:11
Wade
into this like

00:35:03:11 - 00:35:10:28
Wade
joke with, with my class of like, oh yeah, we're giving the traditional Lucien greeting, where I would have students come up to me and be like, hey, doctor, linger.

00:35:10:29 - 00:35:14:01
Wade
And they would jump in front of me and then go sit this.

00:35:14:03 - 00:35:17:18
Evan
See these people bunny hopping around the classroom.

00:35:17:20 - 00:35:38:27
Wade
It was amazing. But it was it was one of these exercises of turning something that could be really frustrating into, like, this inside joke. And what I've the kind of life lesson I've taken from that is sometimes just be lighthearted, okay? And like, sometimes things aren't that big of a deal. Just enjoy life for what it is and, turn it into something humorous or positive.

00:35:38:27 - 00:35:41:24
Wade
Something that's a life lesson for me.

00:35:41:26 - 00:36:02:26
Evan
Well, listener, get a little stretching. Let's get another little stretch in our VTubers get their wiggle. You see, it's a nice stretch. Take a moment, relax. Enjoy the rest of the episode, but we hope your day is going okay. We hope that this just gives you a moment of pause. Recognize your body, that you exist and that you're, you know, worthy of love and acceptance.

00:36:02:26 - 00:36:07:05
Evan
Just those easy things. We'll see you. Yeah. As we get back to the episode, here.

00:36:07:05 - 00:36:08:13
Wade
in these videos. And so

00:36:08:13 - 00:36:10:19
Wade
I do kind of want to shift over to those.

00:36:10:19 - 00:36:13:21
James
Videos, at this point.

00:36:13:24 - 00:36:15:15
Wade
psychology of cloud.

00:36:16:09 - 00:36:42:09
Wade
This video, hits me on so many different levels, and I want to go in like a million different directions right now. But my first question for you is why psychology of cloud and what was it like creating this this, I mean, I would call it a tome, for this kind of sacred cow of a game.

00:36:42:11 - 00:36:46:25
James
so the, let me think, I've.

00:36:46:27 - 00:36:54:27
James
So when I made my Kingdom Hearts three videos, Final Fantasy seven remake was coming out just around the corner.

00:36:54:29 - 00:36:56:18
James
I.

00:36:56:21 - 00:37:16:25
James
I was it wasn't super on my radar until, like, it was, like, almost out. and so when I played that game, I was blown. I mean, everyone was blown away, I think, but it was incredible. and I met, Sleepy's through, a fellow, like, Kmart's friend. actually, finally. Oh, wow. so it's it's a crazy story.

00:37:16:27 - 00:37:35:07
James
so I don't know if you guys have heard of topsy McGee. he's he's a streamer. Back in the day, me and him got super close. one of his chatters, was a fan of Sleepy's. Is to me. And top two were Kingdom Hearts streamers. Sleepy's, of course, was in like, the Final Fantasy seven sphere.

00:37:35:10 - 00:37:54:12
James
And, this chatter was like, I really want to connect Sleepy's and taxes. Let's like, let me get them together and have them talk. and then at some point I got, like, wrangled into a voice call. And so we all started talking and, let me think, how do I. I mean, we cut all the details.

00:37:54:14 - 00:37:55:21
James
It's eventually we just.

00:37:55:24 - 00:38:33:06
James
Me and, me and CVC started just talking about, like, the lure of Final Fantasy seven and kind of how closely it lined up to Kingdom Hearts. and that's what, like, really stoked that flame of Like Me and Final Fantasy seven has some really, really deep characters. And so, with, rebirth coming out, I was just like, man, I really want to have just like a, a character dive into who cloud is so that in the event that, you know, remake rebirth in the third game or actually a sequel, that we have some reference of, like, okay, how is the character shifted?

00:38:33:09 - 00:38:48:19
James
and so I think at the time when I started writing it, I was very convinced that, like Remake and Rebirth were a sequel to the oh seven, where, like, this is a different cloud or farther in the future, like everything had like shifted temporarily. I don't think that's.

00:38:48:19 - 00:38:50:12
James
The case anymore. I could be wrong.

00:38:50:13 - 00:38:51:11
Wade
Oh, interesting.

00:38:51:11 - 00:38:58:02
James
Okay, so I pretty now it's more of like, it's just a retelling of it, and there's.

00:38:58:02 - 00:39:05:01
Wade
Okay, so, you've stumbled upon what I would call a land mine, in the community.

00:39:05:04 - 00:39:05:12
James
so.

00:39:05:12 - 00:39:17:05
Wade
What was it about rebirth? Just briefly. And then I want to get back to the psychology of cloud video. What was it about rebirth that convinced you that this is a retelling and not a sequel?

00:39:17:07 - 00:39:22:09
Evan
I'll buy you a little time to think about it, because, whenever Wade always says.

00:39:22:11 - 00:39:23:08
James
Okay. Yeah, well, that's.

00:39:23:11 - 00:39:26:27
Evan
You know, briefly and then ask the question that necessitates a 15 minute.

00:39:26:27 - 00:39:27:07
James
Or.

00:39:27:10 - 00:39:29:05
Wade
15 minute answer. Right. so.

00:39:29:07 - 00:39:30:09
Evan
I bought you some time for the.

00:39:30:09 - 00:39:31:09
Wade
Question about students.

00:39:31:09 - 00:39:32:15
James
Who are in class and they're like.

00:39:32:22 - 00:39:34:26
Wade
Hey, listen, I can't.

00:39:34:26 - 00:39:36:23
James
So yeah, okay. So I.

00:39:36:23 - 00:40:08:27
James
Think, I think the reason I think that it's a retelling and not a, a sequel, is just the developer response to the feedback of remake. I think they had a, a very and a very different story, but seems like the, the feedback from remake caused them to shift slightly. And I wanted to do with rebirth. and I think that's, I think that's also like highly debated about like if the devs have a plan for it or if they're going off and feedback.

00:40:09:00 - 00:40:36:15
James
and I look back to like Aerith and her response to the whispers, right. How in remake she was, she's very much like she is very much from the future, right. but then when we shift into rebirth, all of that future knowledge has kind of been taken from her. that seems very much like. Okay, we were there was something we had in, in in mind, but now we're going to maybe shifts.

00:40:36:18 - 00:40:44:27
James
So just like, oh, like there might be future events, but also like we're this is very much just happening for the first time kind of.

00:40:45:00 - 00:40:46:19
James
I don't know. Yeah.

00:40:46:19 - 00:41:06:05
Wade
It's it's hard to say. And like if you talk to ten different creators on this, they're going to have different responses as well. and I think that, so many people have kind of shifted back and forth between that. Some are are still diehard, you know, it's a sequel, others are like, no, it's always been a retelling.

00:41:06:07 - 00:41:08:15
James
do you know if it.

00:41:08:15 - 00:41:15:04
Wade
Was all part of the plan, in remake to rebirth? And we know they've shifted some things.

00:41:15:07 - 00:41:15:21
James
what do.

00:41:15:21 - 00:41:36:13
Wade
You think that Aerith losing her memories or future memories of the whisper from the whispers? does narratively, for rebirth, that maybe remake was maybe critiqued for not able to do a do you think it's a better choice? A comment briefly on that.

00:41:36:16 - 00:42:02:12
James
so I okay, so I have two thoughts. One is about, fan interaction with developer developers content. other is like how does it impact the shift with Aerith forgetting everything? Because I think remake very much has like that ominous feeling of, okay, we're in a story, but obviously like Aerith and Sephiroth are playing on a completely different level, right?

00:42:02:12 - 00:42:21:10
James
They're they're talking to each other, saying things that we as a player have no idea what they mean. Right? and as, like you dive into it, maybe you can start putting the pieces together, but it's very much like we are talking about things that you're going to go play the third game and then come back and and see how this lines up.

00:42:21:10 - 00:42:49:20
James
Yeah, they're talking about the future with rebirth. I feel like them taking Earth's memories. shifts it back to a present focus. Right. Like it's fighting against she's still wanting to fight against the future that is coming, I think. but we're very much now in a point where all of our party is, is centered in the past and or in the present, and we're moving towards the future, whereas a remake, right.

00:42:49:20 - 00:42:59:01
James
Again, kind of going back, Aerith was very much from the future or had future knowledge that she was trying to shift the outcome of the present. Okay, so. Oh, sorry.

00:42:59:02 - 00:43:17:00
Evan
Oh, no, I'm just going to rephrase and restate so that everybody's kind of caught up. So you're saying that it was both a tonal shift in between the two games, where the way that it was approached from the character's side and some of the writing kind of gave some indications. There was maybe a change. And then you also think it was a focal shift.

00:43:17:03 - 00:43:19:28
Evan
and those were the two things for how you kind of picked up on it.

00:43:20:01 - 00:43:45:15
James
Yeah, exactly. Okay. and so I feel like, yeah, now we're at this point with the third game of, okay, the person that was supposed to help us in the future is now gone, and now we're up against somebody that is completely on a different level. And so it's almost like we're we're having to navigate something where the other person already knows the outcome.

00:43:45:18 - 00:43:49:21
James
and we don't have that extra help anymore, which is going to be fascinating. I'm, I'm so are we.

00:43:49:25 - 00:43:57:04
Wade
We have to clarify, just for the audience and for everybody. You're speaking of Aerith losing Aerith.

00:43:57:07 - 00:43:57:12
James
Yes.

00:43:57:13 - 00:44:01:28
Wade
Is it safe to assume that you were on the side that Aerith has died?

00:44:02:01 - 00:44:21:10
James
Okay, I, I would have put a pin in one thing I think I see, you were writing something down. I want to come back to this about, how fan interaction impacts, developer content and, like, yes, my feelings on that, because I have a lot of feelings on that. I will bring.

00:44:21:10 - 00:44:22:15
James
It back up for.

00:44:22:15 - 00:44:23:18
James
Aerith.

00:44:23:21 - 00:44:24:12
James
I.

00:44:24:14 - 00:44:49:20
James
I'm very delist in the sense, I don't know if nihilist is the right word for it, but I, I really want the events of the this, this, whatever this is. Right? This trilogy, to, to be, like, really, really dark. Like, my thing is I wanted Aerith to live in the end.

00:44:50:04 - 00:45:02:23
James
Only to get to the very last game and realize that in order to save everyone or to have the least consequence to the planet and the people on it happen, she has to die.

00:45:02:25 - 00:45:03:08
James
Wow.

00:45:03:09 - 00:45:20:13
James
Right. And so I wanted it. I wanted it to be this very like this tragedy. Almost. Right. Like we did save her in the second game. She's okay. We're going to change the future. And then you get to the end and they realize we can't do that. Like if we want to save people, right? Like especially Aerith, right?

00:45:20:13 - 00:45:46:00
James
That that, like seeing that inner struggle between, like she really wants to live, right? She wants she wants to either, you know, be with these new friends or have a way of bringing Zack back. but then, like, having to wrestle with, okay, I can save myself and these people and essentially doom the earth, or I can go back and perish to save everybody else.

00:45:46:00 - 00:45:54:03
James
And I think that, like, that would be, like, just such a, that'd be such a hard thing to to navigate. And wouldn't.

00:45:54:03 - 00:45:55:09
Wade
It be.

00:45:55:11 - 00:45:55:16
James
Like.

00:45:55:23 - 00:46:08:07
James
That's my, like, horrible dark. Like no one wants to have that experience happen. But like I think that would like narratively I think that would be just, like a really interesting, tough conversation to have.

00:46:08:09 - 00:46:33:25
Wade
Aerith says something in chapter one of rebirth and they're talking about Sephiroth. they're saying somehow he's alive, and she says, I don't know so much about him being alive as much as around. Would it be fair to say that era, that the end of rebirth is around, not necessarily alive? And what do you think is the the consequence collateral of that?

00:46:33:27 - 00:46:34:29
James
I don't well, okay.

00:46:34:29 - 00:46:59:24
James
At this point, I don't know if it's too different than what she was in, like, the end of OG seven and into having children, right. Because she's very much around, in a sense talking to cloud and like still interacting. So to me and I'm not a lawyer Masters so I don't know, like what all has been theorized or what has been found.

00:46:59:26 - 00:47:10:04
James
but for now, right now it feels like she's very much in the same place she was in OG seven and Advent Children. but I don't, I don't know.

00:47:10:09 - 00:47:10:18
James
Yeah.

00:47:10:25 - 00:47:31:23
Evan
Wait, if you'll just like, just say what the significance of that would be for people who maybe don't know what like OG versus Advent Children versus where we're at right now, sure that we're pretty deep into a video we are. But just give like the 15 second like, this is what this means. This is what Advent Children is, and this is that that way we can.

00:47:31:25 - 00:47:58:20
Wade
Yeah. In the original game, Aerith dies. and yet she is still in some ways her prayer, at least her her power through a specific, materia that she is left behind is still taking effect and still empowering the party, still fighting against Sephiroth and his forces. And this is, coming up in pretty illustrative detail in the rebirth, remake rebirth, trilogy.

00:47:58:23 - 00:48:22:10
Wade
Advent children is the movie sequel to Final Fantasy seven OG, and probably the sequel to the remake trilogy as well. we don't know until the third one comes out. but allegedly the devs say it's lining up her. She is present in Advent Children in these sort of like, it not really visions because they're like real.

00:48:22:13 - 00:48:30:24
Wade
But she's still interacts. She's around with the players even though she is canonically dead at that point. So that's kind of what we're referencing.

00:48:30:24 - 00:48:31:20
James
Evan okay.

00:48:31:24 - 00:48:34:20
Evan
Great. Everybody, you're caught up. You understand everything. Now we can.

00:48:34:21 - 00:48:35:25
James
Everything.

00:48:35:28 - 00:48:39:22
Wade
Right in, please.

00:48:39:25 - 00:48:52:01
Wade
So, we want to make sure that we come back to to what you just said about devs and yes, thank you back. And so please let's loop back on that and then we'll, we'll get into some of.

00:48:52:03 - 00:48:53:27
Evan
I can reset the question for.

00:48:53:28 - 00:48:56:01
James
I think I remember,

00:48:56:04 - 00:49:19:04
James
Where it was about like how the fans response might have shifted or impacted some of the devs, writing or the direction that they took for the story. again, we don't know how much that actually, like, impacted it. We don't know how much they've written. We don't know how much they are taking fan feedback into consideration.

00:49:19:07 - 00:49:23:09
James
Right. but whenever I hear that, I always like.

00:49:23:12 - 00:49:23:19
James
I don't.

00:49:23:19 - 00:49:35:17
James
Know, I cringe, not like cringe, but like, I, I'm very averse to, feedback impacting the intended design that somebody has.

00:49:35:22 - 00:49:35:28
James
Right.

00:49:36:02 - 00:49:38:22
Wade
You're like the king of the whispers. You want things to follow the.

00:49:38:22 - 00:49:42:22
James
Plan, right? Yeah. Right. and so.

00:49:42:25 - 00:50:11:15
James
Yeah. So what I heard like that fan feedback was taken into consideration. I think I've seen articles that said, like the, the main story that they want to say isn't really impacted, but maybe some of the things are and again, I that could be possible. but I'm always just averse when I hear that because I think if you have a story that you want to say and that you want to like that you that you have that you should you should push for the story in the vision that you have.

00:50:11:17 - 00:50:34:13
James
it goes, it's it's really silly. It goes back to this manga I read as a kid called Bakuman. Not the not the little like, metallic balls that turned into monsters, but it was about, two mangaka that that wanted to write their own, series, and it followed them and it was Slice of Life and, one of the, the ending arcs of it was they wanted to get an anime.

00:50:34:16 - 00:50:50:27
James
And so they did everything that they could to get popular. And so one of the things that they did was I started taking fan submissions in and trying to work that into their, their pieces. Right. And so they started like taking in fan theories and what the fans wanted to see. And at first people were like, oh, great.

00:50:50:27 - 00:50:54:12
James
Like, I'm seeing my stuff. But then.

00:50:54:14 - 00:50:55:05
James
The.

00:50:55:07 - 00:51:14:05
James
engagement and the, fan reception started to turn on them because it was no longer they were no longer along for the ride. Right? They were there was this almost like shift in how people engaged with it because of like, them not bending to their fans, but just.

00:51:14:07 - 00:51:17:26
James
It almost like took the.

00:51:17:29 - 00:51:45:04
James
The expectation that the, the fans had of them. Right. It was just like, oh well, like why aren't you telling the story that you want to tell, right? Why? Why do you feel like why are you not confident enough in your story to tell it how you want to tell them? And so that's always like stuck with me of again, that's I'm not I'm not trying to say that the, the writers of seven are not confident, but that always just kind of creeps into my mind when I, when I see, like, fan feedback taken in,

00:51:45:07 - 00:51:46:13
James
Which is a book.

00:51:46:13 - 00:52:02:18
Evan
Club discussion just the other day and someone was talking about, I forget the name of the author. It was an author, a professor, and he was talking. He was one of the teachers of George R.R. Martin who wrote Game of Thrones. and obviously Game of Thrones is not finished yet as of the recording of this, that final book he hasn't written.

00:52:02:21 - 00:52:03:12
Evan
But I.

00:52:03:18 - 00:52:03:22
James
Know.

00:52:03:26 - 00:52:25:26
Evan
Yeah, well, we have winds of Winter, I guess is the last book, and it's not out yet, and he supposedly is writing it anyways. the advice that was given to him by the professor was, don't release any of your books until you've written all of them. Basically, don't don't put out anything. Like, if I could go back in time, I would write everything that I wanted to write and just release it as one go.

00:52:25:26 - 00:52:38:16
Evan
Now, obviously in video games, that's not really possible and it's not really possible in writing either. I mean, you have you typically need some money to be able to write more things, but I think it illustrates a little bit of that tension that exists within that creative process.

00:52:38:19 - 00:52:40:06
James
Yeah.

00:52:40:08 - 00:52:53:15
James
I mean, cause, right, like once you see, if you're writing a trilogy and you're like, man, I really want this person to die in in the third game or the third book. And then you see everyone like, you put out the first book, and everyone loves this character.

00:52:53:15 - 00:52:54:04
James
Right.

00:52:54:07 - 00:52:55:13
James
Now you're like, oh.

00:52:55:13 - 00:52:58:14
James
Now like like maybe I should maybe I should.

00:52:58:14 - 00:53:15:11
James
Change things, right? Because if this character dies in this book and everyone loves them, they might be upset. And so maybe now I'm going to, you know, stop foreshadowing that or stop setting that up and try to like, shift gears that, you know, maybe they almost die and then they, they don't I don't know. I'm. Yeah.

00:53:15:13 - 00:53:35:24
Wade
It's such a challenge. Right. And even as, content creators, you know, to to stay true to the vision, and desires of, of, you know yourself what you want to put out into the world versus what's going to get traction and stuff. And it's such an interesting balance between what you want to create and what may really catch fire.

00:53:35:24 - 00:53:39:02
Wade
So I'm sure that that's a temptation for a lot of people out there.

00:53:39:04 - 00:53:45:27
James
Oh for sure. I mean, it's so easy that it's so easy to think, oh, I'll just like I'll just do whatever's popular.

00:53:45:29 - 00:53:46:16
James
but I.

00:53:46:17 - 00:54:26:17
James
Think and you see that happen to some creators where like they get labeled as like a sellout or they get labeled as, you know, somebody that that is a fence sitter or like. Right. And so in this, in this shift, you want to appeal to as many people as possible, right? You dilute yourself in your content. because if you're if, if you're not confident enough to follow through in the vision that you have, I'm a very firm believer, that, like, people can pick up on that, like, I think we put a lot of ourselves into our content, and we don't put 100% if we don't put our authentic self into stuff.

00:54:26:17 - 00:54:28:29
James
I think that kind of bleeds through.

00:54:29:02 - 00:54:30:10
Wade
100%.

00:54:30:12 - 00:54:33:01
James
I don't know, that's kind of like, I don't know if that's clinical.

00:54:33:03 - 00:54:35:12
James
Or like maybe. Well.

00:54:35:14 - 00:55:00:06
Wade
One of the things that we've learned is that, content creators, especially some that are just getting started, are interested in something. Maybe it's not even content creation through videos. but some other means of creation. They listen to this. And one of the things that feedback that I've gotten is keep asking those questions, because it helps me clarify that kind of thing that I want to create, what kind of creator I want to be.

00:55:00:06 - 00:55:03:14
Wade
So I appreciate you answering that question. That's great.

00:55:03:17 - 00:55:03:20
James
and.

00:55:03:20 - 00:55:23:15
James
I think as a new creator, it's very, it's very easy to get like, I don't know, like it's almost like a fire hydrant. It's like, yeah, sponsored engagement. Like, if you're not ready for it. And I don't, I don't think anyone can be ready for it. Like once, once you're a video catch fire or once you start building an audience.

00:55:23:15 - 00:55:32:05
James
Like it is very intimidating because, like, we're all people, right? Like, there's not like there's not better people than others, right?

00:55:32:12 - 00:55:33:20
James
Like. And I think.

00:55:33:22 - 00:55:53:03
James
There like when you start gaining traction of any kind, there starts to like, be that shift and like, oh, you have to, you know, you have to know everything or you have to know exactly like, you know, every point of Final Fantasy seven before you talk about it, like, yeah, expectations that come up about people because I don't know why, but.

00:55:53:05 - 00:55:54:23
James
But it's it's my.

00:55:54:23 - 00:56:09:08
Wade
Favorite thing about this fandom. And it's also one of the things I'm like, oh, ouch. like anytime you go to a convention or something like that, people will get into the weeds sometimes with voice actors. And the voice actors are like, I don't know, you know.

00:56:09:08 - 00:56:11:01
James
Like.

00:56:11:04 - 00:56:15:05
Wade
That is some minutia and some detail that I wasn't in that scene. So.

00:56:15:08 - 00:56:16:11
James
Yeah.

00:56:16:14 - 00:56:18:16
James
I have friends of any fandom.

00:56:18:19 - 00:56:19:16
James
it does.

00:56:19:18 - 00:56:22:24
James
It's. Yeah, because it happens in Kingdom Hearts where like.

00:56:22:26 - 00:56:24:26
Wade
Oh, I'm sure it happens in Kingdom.

00:56:24:26 - 00:56:25:27
James
Hearts.

00:56:25:29 - 00:56:28:23
Evan
There's not a lot of crossover ships in that game, are there?

00:56:28:25 - 00:56:32:13
James
No, I don't think so. Just a few. It's there's so.

00:56:32:13 - 00:56:33:26
Wade
Many moving parts and details.

00:56:33:27 - 00:57:11:13
Evan
It's an ambitious game. I do wonder how that impacts our development as people. And here's what I mean by that. What we're talking about with content creation, and the way that the feedback that you receive impacts the kinds of things that you maybe want to make or influences how you talk about it, it does seem like a little bit of a microcosm of the individuation process that we kind of all undergo, how we become the people that we are, how we determine what's important to us, what our values are, who I am and what I'm about, and the impact that external feedback has on that from your experience in life.

00:57:11:13 - 00:57:25:17
Evan
And then clinically, what does that process look like, and how does thinking actively about it help us to achieve the life that we want, feel called to and be more satisfied with it? That's a big question. Sorry.

00:57:25:19 - 00:57:26:08
James
So,

00:57:26:11 - 00:57:46:11
James
Let me like let me ask it back to make sure I understand. So, how does like how do we like, let me think. I just lost it, I had it, how do we, as creators, like, react to, like, the, the communities that we're a part of and how we create content for it?

00:57:46:14 - 00:58:04:22
Evan
Yeah. So using that as the example, the, the idea that someone else's feedback would impact your path and decision. Right. As a queer thing we experience that in life all the time, not about content creation, about just life creation and individuation and growing as a person.

00:58:04:25 - 00:58:05:23
James
How do we.

00:58:05:23 - 00:58:17:15
Evan
Learn about how to have a more active role in understanding what that impact of that external feedback is, and comparing its validity and importance with becoming the person that we want to be?

00:58:19:21 - 00:58:53:24
James
I think like there's two different things. I think like as a creator and just like engaging in a fandom. and correct me if I'm getting off track, but, I think, like, individually, I think we all are wired for connection. Right. And so, I think as we connect with people and we get into these fandoms as we make content, there's a very strong urge to not rock the boat in a sense of like, I'm just thinking of, like, individual ality and like, not herd mentality, but like being part of a group.

00:58:53:26 - 00:59:09:00
James
And there's that weird like push and pull in that balance. So yeah, I don't want to I don't want to upset people. Right? I want to be part of this thing. but also, like, I want to say things that maybe aren't going to agree with everyone. I mean, I.

00:59:09:00 - 00:59:10:01
James
Can I think.

00:59:10:01 - 00:59:36:00
James
The easiest example is like, with, like, shipping, right? Like those is pocket fandoms where people find a lot of like identity and relation and, like self-expression through these, you know, through these connections that they have with the characters and who they, see us together. But then that pushes up against, like another group that says, like, we see something completely different.

00:59:36:00 - 00:59:39:13
James
And how does that like, how does that impact things?

00:59:39:14 - 00:59:41:23
James
And so.

00:59:41:25 - 01:00:06:28
James
yeah, I don't know, I feel like with and maybe I'm getting off track, but I feel like with individuality there's this is like deconstruction and reconstruction period. When we get into a fandom where, and this is just in my experience, I don't know if this happens with everyone. but there was a it was a time where I kind of lost a lot of my identity and trying to, like, connect with the fandom where I was like, oh, I want to, I want to get along with everyone.

01:00:07:00 - 01:00:33:22
James
I don't know how to do that. And so I'm just going to like, just try to, like, get along with everybody. And during that, I think I lost a lot of, like, my own individuality. and like, I like over the past couple of years by like two years, I like, saw like, wow. Like, I really don't know who I am in the community or just like in myself in general, just because I've, I've poured so much of myself into content and into this community.

01:00:33:25 - 01:00:49:13
James
And I never I didn't spend the time to pour back into myself. And that makes sense. Yeah. and so, like over the past couple of years, I've tried to, like, take a step back and kind of solidify my own individuality some more. so it's been interesting. I did that answer. Your question was I.

01:00:49:16 - 01:00:55:16
James
Did I go off track? Not totally. Wade, I think I think so, so. Well, could I can.

01:00:55:16 - 01:01:01:04
Wade
I ask a follow up question to that? You you said you've spent some time doing some of the stuff

01:01:01:04 - 01:01:12:21
Wade
what is it that worked for you to help you reflect and offer care to yourself so that you could, find some individualization and identity?

01:01:12:23 - 01:01:13:16
James
I think it kind of.

01:01:13:16 - 01:01:20:18
James
Took just, realizing that, I was very isolated.

01:01:20:21 - 01:01:20:26
James
in.

01:01:20:26 - 01:01:40:16
James
The sense of like once, like once I hit like, I didn't hit, like rock bottom or rock bottom or anything, but like, there was a point where, like, I just I didn't feel connected anybody because I had just, like, I don't know, like, in the effort to connect with the fandom and connect with everyone, I almost like isolated myself.

01:01:40:18 - 01:01:44:09
James
and so it was that point of like, I looked around and I was like, I don't even know who I am.

01:01:44:12 - 01:01:45:28
James
Like, I'm trying to.

01:01:45:28 - 01:02:09:02
James
Like, enjoy this fandom and like, everyone's like angry. Everyone is like frustrated. And there's like, so much of, like, just this, like surface level engagement. I don't even, like, know, like, who's my friend or like, who's like, who's around. and so it took a lot of like, okay, I need to set my own boundaries around how much do I engage with this, how

01:02:09:02 - 01:02:39:08
James
and, and being more intentional about, like, connecting with people. because very easy to be like, I love cloud and I love, I don't know Tifa. And I like to love these interactions. I'm going to go talk to all these people about how much I like these interactions. but then if you build your whole identity around this one thing, right, if something happens where you're pushed out of that community or if you're, you know, I don't know, just shift your thinking and all of a sudden you look around, you're like, oh, I.

01:02:39:11 - 01:02:40:25
James
I don't have anybody. Right.

01:02:40:28 - 01:03:03:26
James
And so then there's that like that. so yeah. And it goes back to that herd mentality of like, we are very much designed to connect with people. and sometimes we do that to the detriment of our own identity. and if we're not careful about that, if we don't set boundaries, it's a very high likelihood that we will shift and morph to fit other people's vision of who we are.

01:03:03:29 - 01:03:06:06
James
And in so doing, we lose ourselves.

01:03:06:08 - 01:03:06:28
James
I've never done.

01:03:06:28 - 01:03:08:10
Evan
That in my entire life. Ever.

01:03:08:14 - 01:03:14:29
James
No. Yeah. Never. Yeah. I wish that's perfect. yeah. I was getting like, a.

01:03:14:29 - 01:03:22:10
James
Degree in, like, all this, that it it negates mental health. It negates, like, negative outcomes, but it doesn't.

01:03:22:12 - 01:03:24:27
Wade
It only.

01:03:25:00 - 01:03:25:08
James
You.

01:03:25:08 - 01:03:37:20
Wade
Mentioned in your psychology of cloud video the following statement, you say, so many of us are desperate to be accepted, so we'll try to form and fit to other people's views of us.

01:03:37:20 - 01:03:43:20
Wade
what was it about Cloud's story that really resonated with you on that level?

01:03:43:22 - 01:03:44:07
James
I think it.

01:03:44:07 - 01:03:57:29
James
Came down to there was one because as I was writing Cloud psychology, I was actually like a little lost through like half of it. it was just so deep. I didn't know the characters as well.

01:03:57:29 - 01:04:06:10
James
like, halfway through the cloud psychology video, I was very lost in. And what I wanted to get across because I was like, I, I'm laying out all.

01:04:06:10 - 01:04:08:06
James
Of Cloud's character.

01:04:08:06 - 01:04:30:24
James
I still don't really understand who this character is because it just it doesn't it doesn't feel like it's any one thing. Right. And then I came across this line, I think in like the third or fourth act where he said something about like a billion mirror fragments, right. And, actually, I think I was talking to Gallagher, and he mentioned like, oh, this is actually a reference to Xeno gears or something.

01:04:30:26 - 01:04:33:25
James
And I was like, oh, cool. But again.

01:04:33:25 - 01:04:58:13
James
Still, it's so fit in there narratively with cloud. I know that was like an Easter egg, but, that's when it kind of solidified of like cloud has been trying to be this thing for other people so much that he's just lost himself. Right? Like he wants to be this, like, cool, aloof person for, like for Tifa, or he wants to be like this, this caring person for Aerith.

01:04:58:13 - 01:05:23:08
James
And, he gets so lost in, like, portraying somebody strong that he never has, like, that actual time to to actually become strong, right? Like he he wants to portray something, that he sees in Zack, and then he looks up to you. So much that he builds this persona around something that doesn't actually exist. And so when he he hits that tension, it it fractures him.

01:05:23:10 - 01:05:24:29
James
so, yeah.

01:05:25:02 - 01:05:52:22
Wade
You mentioned in that same, kind of, segment of your video, the live stream sequence, the, kind of, I guess end of act two, beginning of act three sort of sequence that so many fans are looking forward to. It's the live stream sequence where cloud is lost himself and Tifa helps find him, and you distinguish between core memories and general memories.

01:05:52:22 - 01:06:08:01
Wade
You talk about core beliefs, founding core memories and all this kind of stuff. Talk to us a little bit about that, because you started to go into some really cool depth and I was just like, so what is a core memory and how would I identify that for myself?

01:06:08:08 - 01:06:09:29
James
Yeah. So I yeah, I.

01:06:10:01 - 01:06:13:28
James
Think I had to like stop myself from like going on like a tangent about.

01:06:13:29 - 01:06:16:03
Wade
I could have listened for 30 more minutes about.

01:06:16:03 - 01:06:18:16
James
The let's go. so.

01:06:18:16 - 01:06:38:01
James
There's this idea, and it's rooted in cognitive behavioral therapy. but we have these schema schemas are kind of just basic, but, we have these things that we build around ourselves and or about the world around us. Right? We have these core beliefs about this is how things work, right? And everyone's core beliefs are different. Right.

01:06:38:03 - 01:06:48:00
James
for some people, we might believe that the world is safe, right? That there are people out there that care about it or that, you know, people have our best interests at heart, right? And so we

01:06:48:00 - 01:06:59:02
James
core beliefs. Then the way that we interpret the world and the interactions around us are going to be completely different than the core beliefs that somebody has that like, they're not safe, they can't trust anybody.

01:06:59:04 - 01:07:20:15
James
Right? If somebody walks up to you and, I don't know, they like they curse you out. Right? If somebody has a core belief of like, you know, people are inherently good, right? Then then our initial reaction might be like, oh, they might just be having a bad day, or you know what? What what's got into them. Right.

01:07:20:17 - 01:07:40:19
James
and so it's a lot easier to, like, laugh that off or to not take that personally as opposed to like, oh, people are people. I can't trust people. Right. And so if someone curses me off, I'm much more likely to just cut that person off, right? Like, I don't like, oh, they've showed their true colors now. Now I know that, like, the thoughts I've had before are valid and I shouldn't trust them.

01:07:40:21 - 01:08:03:13
James
Right. And so at a fundamental level, we all have these. And that's like a very basic one, like a very basic example. but at a fundamental level, right. We have some beliefs about how the world works. and that is how we come at things. Right? and so, yeah, core beliefs are fascinating because they're very, very hard to shift.

01:08:03:16 - 01:08:14:08
James
Right. We can shift them when we have enough evidence. We can shift that core belief to something else. but usually it takes a lot of effort.

01:08:14:11 - 01:08:18:19
Wade
You say that every time we recall something, we subtly shift.

01:08:18:19 - 01:08:20:09
James
It as well. Yeah.

01:08:20:09 - 01:08:30:16
Wade
And that, to me, combined with the core memories and core beliefs, was maybe the most profound thing that I. You had so many profound moments. I was just like writing down everything.

01:08:30:16 - 01:08:31:15
James
That I heard.

01:08:31:17 - 01:09:05:17
Wade
And you pair it with this live stream sequence and you say these core memories, of Tifa and Tifa falling and nearly dying in childhood. Cloud isn't able to save her. cloud isn't included in their their, childhood friend group. he goes off to soldier, and he doesn't make the cut. And each time you say that as he recalls these things, he's shifting the core belief rooted in that memory.

01:09:05:17 - 01:09:36:02
Wade
So he blames himself for not saving Tifa. He blames others for his circumstance of feeling weak. It was them that kept him apart if he was weak. And so it's a self authorship that, is kind of self degrading. He goes off to soldier and he's not good enough. And so shame and embarrassment drives him. What is it about revisiting those core memories that shifts his core beliefs in that final act of OG seven?

01:09:36:04 - 01:09:47:18
James
it comes back in Tifa actually. okay, I don't know if I say it in the video, but like, I think, Tifa is such an important part of that reconstruction.

01:09:47:18 - 01:09:50:15
James
Because.

01:09:50:17 - 01:10:12:19
James
it's it's this it's, evidence against it, right? Where she. I think it makes the point of like. Oh, I didn't know you wanted to hang out with us, right? I didn't know that that was such an important thing. and she doesn't she doesn't tell him what to think. Right. because in that moment, it would have been very easy for her to take the reins and just be like, this is what you should.

01:10:12:19 - 01:10:14:02
James
Think, right?

01:10:14:04 - 01:10:34:03
James
But in so doing that it would then just shift Cloud's dependance because before it was very much hinged on I want to be a strong here like Zack. Right. Or I want to be like a strong soldier for like to protect this person. Right. It would have shifted that to oh I am okay. Right? I'm good enough because Tifa think so, right?

01:10:34:03 - 01:10:39:09
James
And so like that one would. That would not have been helpful. And I think Tifa sees that.

01:10:39:11 - 01:10:39:27
James
Do you.

01:10:39:29 - 01:10:47:01
Wade
Believe that someone can reconstruct themselves, or do they need someone to curate or guide them.

01:10:47:01 - 01:10:48:10
James
Through that?

01:10:48:12 - 01:11:14:20
James
That's, That's a good I. I probably comes back to, like, resiliency theory. in the sense of like, not everyone is going to be the same way, right? Someone else could have gone through Cloud's exact same experiences and had just different core beliefs. Right? You might have taken the exact same information, process it differently, and and come out with fundamentally different core beliefs about that and about himself.

01:11:14:22 - 01:11:18:10
James
and so I think for some people.

01:11:18:12 - 01:11:19:12
James
They.

01:11:19:15 - 01:11:45:17
James
They need. They don't they don't need somebody. But it's helpful in finding themselves to have guidance or to have support, for other people, I think they, they can do it. I don't know, I'm very much of the belief of like support is important. I think it's one of the basis of like, I don't know, like strength.

01:11:45:19 - 01:12:09:27
Wade
Well, it's one of the things that the developers and at least the marketing team for rebirth have really leaned into. I mean, they did the whole, you know, supporting one another, things I forget the program that they called, but it was essentially talk to one another, support one another, be a friend to somebody today. And it's rooted in this game who's central key theme is about bonds, the bonds that you make, bonds that are broken.

01:12:09:29 - 01:12:32:10
Wade
And all of this, for 200 someone hours. and I think, you know, your video, even revisiting it today to prepare for this conversation, it reminded me of all the times that I've had to have somebody else help me reauthorize, and sell author moments of my past. you know, we talked a little bit before the show about how Evan and I met.

01:12:32:10 - 01:12:35:20
Wade
We met in Tuscaloosa when we were both down here. We were in

01:12:35:20 - 01:12:55:07
Wade
We were in our, you know, mid 20s, trying to figure out adulthood, you know, and that's such a, a trying time, career wise, family wise, all that stuff. And, so he and another friend of ours would meet, and I would meet, every Monday on Monday, Mellow Mushroom over pizza.

01:12:55:07 - 01:13:14:16
Wade
And we'd just kind of talk and we would speak that like reordering of our current situation. And so for me, I don't know if I could have, I'm sure with enough willpower and resiliency, like you said, I probably could have, but it was just curated so much more easily when somebody else was helping me guide through that.

01:13:14:18 - 01:13:21:15
James
Yeah, for sure. I think support is like, I think, like I said before, like we're all built for connection.

01:13:21:20 - 01:13:22:26
James
Yeah.

01:13:22:29 - 01:13:48:11
James
I think I, I want to be mindful of, of just pointing out the, the uniqueness of like, everyone's different, right? Everyone's going to process things differently because there are people that go through very, very traumatic things and, and they're fine. yeah. The most part, right. And so for somebody else to come around and say, oh, well, you had these experiences, so you must have x, Y, and Z, right?

01:13:48:18 - 01:13:59:07
James
Is very much, diminishing their own resiliency in their own, strength. and so that's why I'm always careful with like, I don't want to definitively say, like, you need support.

01:13:59:10 - 01:14:00:08
James
you know, a lot.

01:14:00:08 - 01:14:03:12
James
Of us do benefit greatly from that.

01:14:03:15 - 01:14:28:26
Wade
So in the video and then, this is my final quote, and I just have to get it out. You said, have you ever had somebody rapid fire? Thank. You said that cloud strength doesn't come from his friends, which was really interesting. instead, it's how he feels about them. His desire to protect them. Essentially, it's his bonds that really make him strong, I love that.

01:14:28:26 - 01:14:37:18
Wade
Can you speak to that? You know, what's the difference between his strength doesn't come from his friends. Instead, it comes from his desire to protect them.

01:14:37:21 - 01:14:38:22
James
Yeah, I think it.

01:14:38:22 - 01:15:06:18
James
Comes from like, I kind of, again, going back to, like, we're all designed for connection, right? But if we're so fixated on, I need this person, I need these people. And that's what makes me strong. it it sets us up to be very dependent on, And I think it kind of comes from, like, Kingdom Hearts, where, like, Sora's prays all the time.

01:15:06:18 - 01:15:30:16
James
Is my friends in my power. great. but then we see this moment where, spoilers. Where in the end of Kingdom Hearts three, right? All of his friends are decimated, right? They're just gone. And you see how that, like that monologue that those inner thoughts, like that core belief about himself, where his friends are gone and he's like, I'm nothing without them, right?

01:15:30:18 - 01:15:38:26
James
And I think that kind of blood over into like, White Cloud and how I characterize him and then sense of like.

01:15:38:29 - 01:15:39:15
James
If.

01:15:39:17 - 01:15:55:28
James
Cloud was so like if, if he it goes back to like what I was saying about Tifa. Right. It was very important that he found the strength inside of himself to protect what matters, and not so much that his friends gave him the power to protect.

01:15:56:25 - 01:16:15:29
James
And I think I think having children, honest. Like, I don't know what everyone saw fire on advent Children. I watched that after the fact. So, I wasn't like part of the seven community when it came out. I okay, I wasn't in all that conversation. So for me, when I, when I started this, psychology video, I was coming at it like fresh eyes.

01:16:16:02 - 01:16:16:22
Wade
Oh, boy.

01:16:16:22 - 01:16:44:07
James
And so seeing this shift of like, okay, he, he had, like, he fought back against Sephiroth, right? He proved himself that he was strong. And then all of a sudden to shift backwards, almost having children was like a very, a very important like part for me because I was like, okay, this this shows that in this moment where cloud was telling everyone in seven right before the final battle, go find yourselves, go find the reason that you're doing this.

01:16:44:10 - 01:17:05:16
James
You need to be like. You need to know it's why you're doing this, right? When he was saying that, he didn't know himself well, you're quite right. He was able to, like rally himself with his friends to fight back. But then when everything was said and done, he still had that, that self-doubt. Right. And I think, I think that was like one of the core parts of having children that gets missed a lot.

01:17:05:19 - 01:17:16:06
James
I was seeing him go through his own journey in having children and figuring out like, this is why he's strong, this is why he fights back. what's important.

01:17:16:06 - 01:17:30:14
Wade
So I'm so glad that you said that because Cloud's journey and Advent Children, some people are very much like, we just need to not have advent children. I love Advent children because I'm a firm believer that your journey doesn't end at your clay moment.

01:17:30:16 - 01:17:32:14
James
Yes, right.

01:17:32:16 - 01:17:41:13
Wade
Like there's a story afterwards. And that story is oftentimes more compelling because it's how do you reckon with the events that were so catalytic for you?

01:17:41:13 - 01:17:43:10
Evan
It often involves a motorcycle.

01:17:43:12 - 01:17:47:29
Wade
It yes, and it does starting around 35. It absolutely.

01:17:47:29 - 01:17:51:13
James
Does. So, yeah, I think, I think.

01:17:51:13 - 01:18:23:01
James
That's what I like so much about it is because, like, I think cloud instinctually fought back against Sephiroth, knowing that he wanted to protect his friends. but then, like after that, he still had to, like, kind of reconcile and work on himself and still figure himself out, which I think is very humanizing. Like, I think we all think of the hero's journey as like this, and they'll be all right, like, I'm going to go through this whole ordeal and I'm going to hit a heavy spot, and but then I'm going to really find myself, and then I'm going to be perfect.

01:18:23:03 - 01:18:25:26
James
And it's like, well, that's you know, that's not how it goes.

01:18:25:29 - 01:18:26:07
James
Yeah.

01:18:26:12 - 01:18:40:01
James
So having like an actual like origin story with especially cloud is so many people relate to I think kind of have that humanizing step that was really, really cool to see.

01:18:40:04 - 01:18:49:23
Wade
Absolutely amazing. So in that same train I've got two questions remaining ones kind of big. And them one is maybe a little more fun I guess. I'm not.

01:18:49:23 - 01:18:50:20
James
Sure.

01:18:50:22 - 01:19:08:19
Wade
But we we've talked so much about connection and rebirth. I think the devs even revealed that their key word was the bonds of relationship, bonds of friendship. And this, this game that was their driving focus. And you see it in the mini games and all this stuff and the ways that characters will playfully interact and even the affinity system.

01:19:08:21 - 01:19:35:00
Wade
But there's one sequence in the game that really speaks to when those bonds break down, and there's a lot of them, but one in particular is the very famous, very beloved scene of Barrett and Dine, and it's this idea of how hatred has consumed dine. Now they did make some, some changes to this. and I was just curious, you know, what

01:19:35:04 - 01:19:41:12
Wade
What do you take from that and talk to us a little bit from the clinical side about hate and what hate does to a person?

01:19:42:09 - 01:19:52:09
James
I yeah. So when I first played the the bearded Dion section in rebirth, I, I like, broke down like it was probably one of the most powerful moments.

01:19:52:09 - 01:19:54:29
James
Beautiful. You know, and I.

01:19:55:02 - 01:20:19:13
James
I almost characterize it as like, what is regret? Do, rather than hatred. just because, like, you see these two characters, who I kind of going back full circle where they both have the same traumatic event happen. Right? But because of their core beliefs and because of, like, the peop the people around them, they have two completely different outcomes, right?

01:20:19:13 - 01:20:42:25
James
For Barrett, he, he has Marlene and has like, this whole, like, motivation to do better and to, like, make sure that she's okay. And so it's almost like dying shows what could have become of Barrett if he was also alone. I love that, that parallel piece of here, here are the two outcomes of what could have happens.

01:20:42:25 - 01:21:06:16
James
And like here is a kind of going back to that focal point of rebirth here. What the bonds of, of the people around us can have an impact on. and so yeah, I think yeah, the, the ending of, of all of that was, oh, grief is grief is tough. Grief is something that is not it's not like you can sit down and talk about it for ten minutes.

01:21:06:16 - 01:21:10:02
James
Let me. Okay. With you. it's it's very complex.

01:21:10:05 - 01:21:31:10
James
What Dimas been feeling, thinking that he had lost everyone and and what he went through because of that grief, and the things that he did. I mean, when he realizes that that Marlene's okay, right. Like, there's this there's, like, almost a break, right? Like he has this, this breaking point of, I'm trying to think. I think in the cutscene, he's like.

01:21:31:10 - 01:21:54:21
James
Like trying to, like, wipe his hand symbolically, like he's wiping his hands. He's like, I have so much blood on me. Like I can't even, like, meet my daughter, right? I've done so much, I, I'm thinking that she was gone thinking that everyone I loved was gone. I can't see her. And man having like, children and thinking of, I mean, it's it's rough.

01:21:54:24 - 01:21:57:00
James
Yeah.

01:21:57:02 - 01:22:17:14
Wade
that scene, I mean, it's iconic for a reason. And I think it's because it hits on such a personal level for all of us, you know, with with regret and grief and, fear of acceptance or lack or all of that stuff. We all have, stories about that, the way that they tell this story in rebirth.

01:22:17:17 - 01:22:23:29
Wade
to to many surprise, during the boss fight with Diane, he gains this almost Resident Evil like.

01:22:23:29 - 01:22:24:25
James
Oh, yeah, all right.

01:22:24:27 - 01:22:32:25
Wade
You know, with all of this, I guess magnetize, mechanism just coming to his arm and stuff. Well, what do you make of that?

01:22:34:07 - 01:22:48:25
James
So I want to say somebody mentioned, like, Marco is right, or there's something that he, I don't know if they ever specifically come out and say it, but, there's this very.

01:22:48:27 - 01:23:14:04
James
what's the word I'm looking for? It's a very like, slightly hinting that maybe he's, like, shifted into, like, micro abuse or misuse and, that's why he's, like, seeing his wife and, like, that's why he's, like, having these breaks from reality. And maybe that's why he can, you know, bend reality or, I don't know, like, pull in like that Resident Evil stuff.

01:23:14:06 - 01:23:37:04
James
but I think that's what I read that when I saw that, I was like, oh, that makes so much sense. Because with regret, like, with, because regret makes us and I, I gotta keep myself focused. I don't want to jump off into too many things. with regrets. It is. There's so much internal struggle that happened, right?

01:23:37:04 - 01:24:00:10
James
Like, there is so much, just like rethinking everything that we've felt was normal, right? Like, with regret, we we have these holes that that dig into our life. Right. and so we have a decision with regret where we can either sit in front of those holes and let them consumers and, or we can build around them.

01:24:00:12 - 01:24:28:07
James
Right. Like those those holes don't go anywhere. We're always going to have that. and I think that's one of the things that that is tough about regret and about grief and loss is those those pockets, those holes don't ever just magically heal. we can either fall into them or we can let it consumers or we can, you know, start to build around them to not get back to normal, but to have a new normal.

01:24:28:09 - 01:24:49:06
James
Right. and and again, that's, that's a very simplified way of looking at it too. Right. Is because sometimes we will build around it and we will, you know, start to heal, only to fall into that grief and at a later point in life. and so it's a very much like a not point A to point B kind of thing with grief and loss.

01:24:49:08 - 01:25:09:04
James
and I think we see with Diane that his way of coping with that was not to build around it, but to distract himself, to make himself forget about it. Right. And so I think it makes perfect sense that he would like, you know, try to use Marco to connect with a live stream to see his beloved.

01:25:09:07 - 01:25:11:07
James
I don't know if he knew that that would happen.

01:25:12:14 - 01:25:17:28
James
But I think that. Yeah, it makes complete sense that he would shift into like Marco. Mrs..

01:25:18:00 - 01:25:38:02
Wade
It really does. because you, you hit a point where, you know, the grief or regret or hatred or whatever feeling and anguish and angst that you begin to feel, you've got to do something about that. One of the most interesting scenes, for me in the game with Barrett and Don, I would love your take on this

01:25:38:02 - 01:25:42:27
Wade
when, Don has just continued to build that for everybody listening.

01:25:42:27 - 01:26:16:01
Wade
Both Barrett and Don lost their arms during, an escape from, their hometown when it was under siege. And they both separately augmented their arms with, artillery. so a machine gun on each one of their arms during the battle between Barrett and Don. Don augments his even further with even more things. And it's from the Marco misuse that bio is mentioned, but after the battle, Barrett removes his.

01:26:16:03 - 01:26:43:14
Wade
And it's such an interesting piece. There's these two people with this similar same, excuse me, core memory, but their core belief has caused them to augment themselves differently. For Dion, he's, building something that he's going to exact revenge. Right. And Barrett is trying to do something for a means to an end, almost to end a time of hatred or death or something like that.

01:26:43:18 - 01:26:44:00
James
Yeah.

01:26:44:03 - 01:26:50:01
Wade
Talk to me a little bit about that. Was that does that make sense from a clinical standpoint? How much you've seen that.

01:26:50:03 - 01:26:51:03
James
So like.

01:26:51:05 - 01:26:53:14
James
With Barrett's very much.

01:26:53:16 - 01:26:54:14
James
Excuse me.

01:26:54:16 - 01:27:01:16
James
it's very much like a, like you said, like a means to an end, like it's, it's I'm doing these things. I don't like it,

01:27:01:16 - 01:27:11:21
James
passionate about not having somebody else experience the same thing I did that I'm just I'm going to do whatever it takes, right. And I think that that's a very simplified look at you.

01:27:11:21 - 01:27:35:29
James
Barrett is. But like essentially I'm going to protect the people that I need to protect, and I'm going to do whatever means necessary. That might mean I'm the bad guy and I'm fine taking that role. As we see in the beginning of remake and beginning of seven, where he's very much just like, I'm I'm going to be aggressive and get my way because, you know, the end goal is I'm protecting what matters.

01:27:37:23 - 01:27:46:25
James
Whereas with Dyne, it's, it's very much like I have nothing left. I'm going to take down as many people as possible.

01:27:46:25 - 01:27:59:10
James
essentially, like, I'm going to just I'm going to just hurt other people because I'm hurt. and so I want to say in the original, he like, talks about, like taking Marlene with him.

01:27:59:10 - 01:28:08:25
James
Right. Like, it's very much like a this world is terrible. There's nothing good in this world. I'm. I'm just going to to end it. Essentially.

01:28:09:01 - 01:28:16:06
Wade
Yeah. Ended and end Marlene. And they're going to reunite as a family in the afterlife. whatever that is.

01:28:16:13 - 01:28:26:29
James
Of nihilistic in the sense of like, nothing, nothing is good, right? There's nothing good here. Like, I need to, like, just end everything when I can. when I think

01:28:26:29 - 01:28:46:00
James
Encapsulated his grief so well because he was. Because important in the end, the rebirth or the end of his time in rebirth, where he's like, I, I don't want to be here. Right? I have wanted to leave this place for a long time, and I have not been able to, like, I know what I need to do and I can't do it.

01:28:46:02 - 01:28:52:13
James
and I think that was, again, like a very humanizing thing. the very, like, upsetting thing of.

01:28:52:16 - 01:28:54:16
James
Like,

01:28:54:19 - 01:29:18:02
James
I don't know, it's hard to like it's hard to talk about topics like this because, like going down, like content, like you don't want to say the wrong thing and get, like, demonetized. Like, if you say certain words like it, it reduces your reach. But, like, these are things that everybody struggles with. And I think that, like having a character and having an arc like this of like, I have these thoughts that I want to hurt myself.

01:29:18:02 - 01:29:41:12
James
I don't want to be here. but I'm too scared or like, I'm, I just can't I can't follow through with it. and I think that was like, I don't know. I think that was like a really important thing to include in that of, like with, with regret, with with this grief. Like, people have those thoughts like, people don't want to be here, don't want to, don't want to be on this earth.

01:29:41:14 - 01:29:57:18
James
And sometimes, like they are just one step away from from making a really, really harmful, devastating decision. and like, there's not a it's not a good choices. It's not like if there's not a happy ending to that.

01:29:57:21 - 01:30:00:01
James
Right? I feel like that's such.

01:30:00:01 - 01:30:21:29
Wade
A sensitive topic, that rebirth, kind of elegantly looks at and says like, this is this is suffering and this is the way that we try to mitigate suffering in our lives. And everybody's just trying to do the best they can. And it's tiring. It's exhausting.

01:30:22:01 - 01:30:23:05
James
And that's that's.

01:30:23:05 - 01:30:48:02
James
Why he shifts to write this macro is right. And like the ending of dying is not a happy ending and the end is the word. There's there's no resolution to his feelings, right? He learns that his daughter's alive and that he he's done so much that he feels like he can't go see her. Right. he saves Barrett, but not in the sense of, like, it's not even chivalrous.

01:30:48:02 - 01:31:02:19
James
It's just like it's just in a in a moment of pain, he tries to take out Shinra, who's hurt him more. And so then he falls on Barrett, and it's not even a nice goodbye, right? It's carry this guilt, carry this.

01:31:02:22 - 01:31:06:13
Wade
The weight of this. Like you're carrying this from now on.

01:31:06:15 - 01:31:07:19
James
it's. Yeah.

01:31:07:21 - 01:31:18:01
Wade
And again, what a powerful moment when cloud, in a remarkable departure of his usual self, just says to him. Hey, you don't have to bear this alone. We're with you.

01:31:18:03 - 01:31:18:22
James
Yeah.

01:31:18:24 - 01:31:33:12
Wade
To me, that almost brought a tear to my eye because it's like cloud. You're like the most emotionally unavailable person in this game. And all of a sudden you're like, you know, given the given Barrett a, like, a big hug, he doesn't in the game. He's not that close. But emotionally.

01:31:33:13 - 01:31:35:07
James
Does.

01:31:35:07 - 01:31:35:28
James
I think it's.

01:31:35:28 - 01:32:05:27
James
Because for a lot of people cloud is this like guy who just doesn't understand stuff when in reality he's just he's he doesn't know how to talk about it. Right. And so when he sees this burden right, this this weight part of him can relate to that. And I think maybe it's something that he wants to hear. And, and often the, the times that we resonate and that we try to care for others, we're speaking what we wish we had heard.

01:32:06:00 - 01:32:08:28
James
Right. And so it's almost like cathartic.

01:32:09:01 - 01:32:21:05
Wade
Isn't that just a banger phrase? Like so often we're saying the things we wish we could be hearing. Yeah, that's that's amazing. and so true to reality.

01:32:21:05 - 01:32:28:18
Wade
we talked a lot about rebirth. I feel like, you know, you have opened my eyes to, to look at some of these scenes so differently.

01:32:28:18 - 01:32:41:15
Wade
And I can't thank you enough for that. Thinking about the future, what's one thing that you want to see and really hope is detailed in part three?

01:32:41:17 - 01:32:48:22
James
I, I really like I still come back to that, like nihilistic, like tragic ending where.

01:32:48:22 - 01:32:49:23
Wade
Everyone gets.

01:32:49:23 - 01:32:56:27
James
To die. Right? and it's not like it sounds so bad, like saying it out loud, but I just think, like.

01:32:57:00 - 01:32:59:07
James
Having this moment where they all.

01:32:59:14 - 01:32:59:21
James
They.

01:32:59:21 - 01:33:11:11
James
All know the decision that they have to make, right? They see both futures, right of like, this is what happens if there are things that come back and this is the future where, like both of them don't come back.

01:33:11:11 - 01:33:27:10
James
These are the consequences that happen. And are you okay taking those consequences? I, I think like having that decision, honestly, like, my dream is like we have we have a branching sequence, right where, like, we as a player get to make that decision.

01:33:27:10 - 01:33:29:09
James
Oh my gosh, I it will.

01:33:29:09 - 01:33:32:04
James
It will never happen. Right. None of this will ever happen. because.

01:33:32:04 - 01:33:33:22
James
I very much like, what is.

01:33:33:24 - 01:33:35:26
James
You a way. But my dream scenario.

01:33:35:26 - 01:33:41:24
James
Whatevs. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

01:33:41:26 - 01:33:51:07
James
Yeah, I don't think that that ever happen, but having that, like, branching sequence of, like, we can decide either to save these people, which I think a lot of people would, and then we just have all these cataclysmic, like.

01:33:51:10 - 01:33:54:20
James
Terrible things happen. I.

01:33:54:20 - 01:34:12:00
James
Don't know, like, I just think I think a lot of times we especially with Aerith, so many people want her to live, right. There is so many people who would make up minds or to who make like, like these what ifs in. They're like back before, you know, we could fact check everything where people would like, write out these these long posts about what would happen.

01:34:12:00 - 01:34:17:00
James
Like this is my game glitched if I actually saved Aerith. Right. and so like.

01:34:17:03 - 01:34:18:08
James
Like seeing.

01:34:18:10 - 01:34:26:08
James
You know, the end product of that and like realizing like, oh, this is why this happen. I don't know. I just think that'd be cool.

01:34:26:11 - 01:34:33:15
Wade
No, that would be amazing. You'd be a, I imagine it would be a technically developmental nightmare trying to figure out.

01:34:33:15 - 01:34:37:16
James
All of the possible. I mean, who knows? if, if.

01:34:37:22 - 01:34:42:02
James
If Schrodinger's baby seal is listening, he's rolling his eyes because I talk every so much.

01:34:42:02 - 01:34:46:26
James
About that. But that's okay.

01:34:46:28 - 01:34:52:26
Wade
Like, I'm pretty sure he influenced the devs to have, the characters brought out on stretchers for that one trailer.

01:34:52:26 - 01:34:54:28
James
So, yeah, I know he was.

01:34:54:28 - 01:34:56:01
Wade
Screaming at the.

01:34:56:02 - 01:34:59:18
James
Game boards or whatever it was. Oh yeah, that was wild.

01:34:59:21 - 01:35:10:10
Wade
Well, Rocks. Is there anything else that you want to say? Just, you know, by way of closing out, this is kind of your your floor, your, open mic time.

01:35:10:12 - 01:35:11:16
James
I think,

01:35:11:18 - 01:35:25:21
James
The only other thing I wanted to talk about was, there's this moment at the end, the rebirth. I think it's during the temple of the ancients. Okay. Say, it's that moment where, like, each person has to, like, go through their own trauma trials.

01:35:25:21 - 01:35:29:11
James
Yeah, yeah, the trials. And, I that.

01:35:29:11 - 01:35:33:26
James
It's like, one of my favorite parts. And I would love to make, like, a deep dive into it because it it's.

01:35:33:28 - 01:35:37:26
James
It's so powerful. It is. And I think it sets up.

01:35:37:27 - 01:35:47:13
James
So much of like that conversation cloud is going to have where he's like, you guys need to figure out why you're fighting, right? And it sets up that those pieces of like.

01:35:47:16 - 01:35:48:15
James
Oh, it does.

01:35:48:16 - 01:35:49:17
James
Here is everything, right.

01:35:49:17 - 01:35:52:02
James
This is the way it does. Yeah.

01:35:52:05 - 01:36:02:21
James
And I would just like I would love to, to see all of that kind of connect and, and keep going in the future games. But that whole section was so powerful like I.

01:36:02:23 - 01:36:04:28
James
There are amazing I.

01:36:05:01 - 01:36:18:04
Wade
Everyone I speak to, they always have something to say about trials. Those trials. What is it about those trials that do you think hits at a human level, like universally?

01:36:18:06 - 01:36:20:03
James
I think it's just like one.

01:36:20:03 - 01:36:36:28
James
I think it's new. Right? I think that's one of the things of I think it most of it is either like talked about in future, like books or in like kind of fleshed out in different scenarios, but like, that's one of the parts where it's like, oh, this is new. This is like this is something that we haven't seen before.

01:36:37:00 - 01:37:15:01
James
But I think that's one reason why it's so like and you can powerful. But then I think the other pieces like, like all of the things that happen, are very much humanizing things. Right. Grief, loss of Barrett. that that feeling of of, that rejection. But that feeling of of, with Aerith, like, that's probably one of the, the saddest scenes for me is like that feeling of helplessness as, like the person that is supposed to be my caretaker, that's supposed to know what's going on and supposed to protect me is now not there, right?

01:37:15:01 - 01:37:30:05
James
Like I I'm now having to go look for help for the person that I thought was like, you know, my protector. and I think that that helplessness feeling is, is very, relational, or relatable. Sorry.

01:37:30:08 - 01:37:31:27
James
Yeah.

01:37:31:29 - 01:37:42:06
James
I'm trying to think of the other characters. I think each one just had a very humanizing element to it that was very relatable on, on just a fundamental level.

01:37:42:09 - 01:37:58:14
Wade
Well, those trials to me were where some of the most fascinating things in the entire game, just because it did build the lore. And what I can say is, this episode, this interview is going to come out the same week as a video essay I've got coming out that's going to address some of those trials. So this.

01:37:58:14 - 01:37:59:21
James
Is a really.

01:37:59:21 - 01:38:01:03
Wade
Nice kind of launch pad for.

01:38:01:03 - 01:38:06:17
James
That. It's going to be really fast. I like it. So, I, you know.

01:38:06:19 - 01:38:10:01
Wade
Evan, anything from you as we close out.

01:38:10:04 - 01:38:16:19
Evan
How can people find you? What do you have coming up that you want to share and chat about your site?

01:38:16:22 - 01:38:24:24
James
so I'm on a YouTube, Twitch, Twitter. there's a, like, my three main things. coming up.

01:38:26:03 - 01:38:43:23
James
I'll probably still be working on the psychology of Zeno. Right. That's my next, like, big video. And I put out, I was like, saw is like the main character of Kingdom Hearts, but, I feel like Zeno is almost like a second main character in that series, just with how much, backstory and character development that he has.

01:38:43:23 - 01:38:50:13
James
And so I've been, like, poring over all the games, trying to put together this, this, cohesive breakdown of

01:38:50:13 - 01:38:56:06
James
March 3rd, they're like, why did you do this? 180 like, what is what is he going on about? And it's like.

01:38:56:09 - 01:38:56:19
James
Yeah.

01:38:56:19 - 01:39:13:21
James
If you just play the games and you don't like, you don't dive into like the secret reports, the side games like Zeno, it's motivations seem to shift pretty quickly. And drastically. but if you if he knows anything or, all of his decisions and everything are very much fun, like, very.

01:39:13:21 - 01:39:14:17
James
Much.

01:39:14:19 - 01:39:30:19
James
Like, driven by one singular, motivation. And so, I want to make a video on that. I also like and wanting to do like a more casual psychology of format for streams. so that'll be coming out at some point.

01:39:30:22 - 01:39:32:14
James
Oh. But.

01:39:32:17 - 01:40:04:02
James
yeah, like playing through, games and, I feel like I kind of like, with this podcast, like, it's, it's easy to get off on to like, other tangents and, and flesh out ideas that I can only briefly touch on in videos. And so having that more like casual, format or streams I think would be like really interesting to dive into, different games and give more of like a, you know, psychology of certain games rather than like doing like I'm short and brief blurb free character.

01:40:04:04 - 01:40:06:13
James
So those are the those are the things on the horizon.

01:40:06:15 - 01:40:12:23
Wade
That's awesome. That is exactly the kind of content that I crave. So, I will be waiting eagerly for that.

01:40:12:26 - 01:40:15:09
Evan
And thanks so much for your time. And thanks for.

01:40:15:09 - 01:40:17:13
James
Your. Seriously. Yeah, I've.

01:40:17:13 - 01:40:22:01
James
I've I'm so honored that you guys wanted to talk to me. And I'm very appreciative.

01:40:22:03 - 01:40:39:19
Wade
by that, like I said, the honor is all ours. And we are so glad that you, made time to be with us tonight. So thank you so much. everybody go check out Bio Rocks us on YouTube, Twitch, and Twitter slash X. I guess we're supposed to call it that now. So, everybody go and check out our bio stuff.

01:40:39:22 - 01:41:00:18
Wade
and with that, we are excited to continue our, I don't Fantasy seven rebirth lecture series. thanks for listening. And stay tuned for our next episode as well as lecture plays. on Tuesday and Thursday nights of, various chapters of rebirth as we go through the semester. And, until next time, we will see you in class.

01:41:00:21 - 01:41:19:05
James
Bye, everybody. Oh, the wiggle with the avatar. Oh, I'm. This is that I don't have arms, so I don't know. it's also I don't know, he says. Oh, this was an imaginary conversation.

01:41:19:05 - 01:41:20:21
James
I made my character up.

01:41:20:23 - 01:41:37:18
James
Oh. Oh, very, very soon. Very. They took his legs. I know they took his legs. This is very good. And. Oh, this. Let's.

01:42:04:25 - 01:42:23:18
Speaker 1
Thank you so much to bio Roxas for the interview and the great conversation. Thanks to Husky by the Geek for the use of this amazing theme song that you wrote for us. Thanks to Nick Smith for doing the graphics and thanks to viewers like you for tuning in. All the support, the likes, the comments, all the subscribing that you're doing, we really do appreciate it.

01:42:23:20 - 01:42:35:09
Speaker 1
Just a special note to hop on over to the podcast that we've got there and hit subscribe on that too. It really helps us out. We hope that you have a fantastic rest of your week, and we will see you next episode. Bye bye.