The ProfNoctis Weekly Show

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:27:22
Wade
Hey everybody, and welcome back to another episode of The Prof. Not this show. Today Evan and I are going to be joined by Sleep Easy, who is known for extensive video essays and some of the deepest dives into Final Fantasy seven that you have ever seen. we hope that you enjoy the show. We're going to talk a little bit about the beginning of his content creation journey, his love of Final Fantasy seven, and the extensive research he did to prepare for his first video essay.

00:00:27:25 - 00:00:46:09
Wade
That's all in the first part of the interview. And then the second part is really the moment you have been waiting for. We're going to talk about some of the things that he has made sense of in Final Fantasy seven rebirth. You do not want to miss a bit of it. my mind was blown several times. as always, remember to like and subscribe over on YouTube.

00:00:46:09 - 00:00:57:18
Wade
We are also, hosting podcasts and stuff over wherever you find your podcasts, Apple Music and Spotify. So make sure you download and subscribe over there. And now let's get started with the show.

00:01:24:21 - 00:01:45:01
Wade
Hey, everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Prof. Not this show. I'm here with Evan, but we are really, really excited that today we are with, the like. I don't even know Galaxy brain of the one and only sleep easy. We are so excited to welcome Sleep Easy to the show. How are you doing today?

00:01:45:01 - 00:01:46:15
Evan
Welcome.

00:01:46:17 - 00:02:04:09
Sleepezi
Doing great. I, I know I already said this, but I am just thrilled to be, here with you and Evan. I've been literally. This show has been keeping all of my attention, on all of my car rides to my job and every conversation I have just been.

00:02:04:09 - 00:02:07:07
Sleepezi
Listening to a little bit over again.

00:02:07:09 - 00:02:11:27
Sleepezi
you guys have been doing such a great job, so I'm just more than thrilled to be sitting with.

00:02:11:29 - 00:02:12:29
Sleepezi
both of you today.

00:02:13:02 - 00:02:14:10
Evan
That's really very kind.

00:02:14:12 - 00:02:27:24
Wade
Thank you. That's awesome. Very, very nice. I love that we are getting into, people's morning commutes or their commute to their job. I feel like, I don't know, I hope that's a good way to start your day. and, you know.

00:02:27:27 - 00:02:29:09
Sleepezi
Yeah, it's the best.

00:02:29:09 - 00:02:39:07
Sleepezi
Way to start any Final Fantasy seven fix that I can get. And not just from you guys, but all of the people that you've been having on. It's just been a good start, for sure.

00:02:39:09 - 00:02:46:16
Evan
let me call your time out with your audio is a little quiet. That something change or something? I just it dropped from.

00:02:46:19 - 00:02:47:10
Wade
Oh, weird.

00:02:47:16 - 00:02:49:18
Evan
I can turn you up. I hate to.

00:02:49:21 - 00:02:51:08
Wade
Turn me up. Okay.

00:02:51:10 - 00:02:52:04
Evan
All right. You're good now.

00:02:52:06 - 00:02:53:28
Wade
It's fine. I didn't touch anything, so.

00:02:54:04 - 00:02:58:10
Evan
Must have been on mine. I had you down a little bit from another call, so go ahead and check again.

00:02:58:13 - 00:02:59:20
Wade
Okay? Check check, check.

00:02:59:20 - 00:03:03:28
Evan
All right, now I got to take you down a little bit. okay. All right.

00:03:04:01 - 00:03:09:06
Sleepezi
All right. Okay. take it back to this.

00:03:09:08 - 00:03:10:22
Wade
All right. So do you want me to start over?

00:03:10:22 - 00:03:11:27
Evan
You can pick up from where we left off.

00:03:11:28 - 00:03:13:01
Wade
Just pick up where we left off.

00:03:13:01 - 00:03:14:11
Evan
Okay?

00:03:14:13 - 00:03:40:23
Wade
Where do you wait? Thank you so much for being on. We are excited to get into it. with you today. You've been a pretty, pretty impressive, content creator over the last few years, putting out some of the most extensive, expansive, deepest dives into the like minutia of the lore like things that I have played Final Fantasy seven since I was 13 years old in 1997.

00:03:40:23 - 00:03:55:11
Wade
Okay. And I was like, I have never heard that detail. I thought I had 100% of this game 27 some odd times, and you're still able to pick new things apart. So it's really cool to be able to talk to you today.

00:03:55:14 - 00:03:57:04
Evan
So he's really yeah.

00:03:57:04 - 00:04:06:26
Sleepezi
I'm super, super excited just to be here and just to be able to talk with you guys and yeah, just kind of get into some of the the nitty gritty of some of this stuff is going to be exciting.

00:04:07:01 - 00:04:27:16
Evan
I want to talk about the nitty gritty because sometimes we'll start with, you know, your history and your video game history, and I want to get into all of that. But you are known for the deep lore dives. And so when I was doing some research on your channel and some of your videos, how long does it take you to make all of those timestamps?

00:04:27:18 - 00:04:32:01
Sleepezi
It's it's impressive. That's a funny that's such a.

00:04:32:01 - 00:04:33:07
Sleepezi
Funny, specific question.

00:04:33:07 - 00:04:37:17
Sleepezi
But yes, it does. It does take a long time. And it had every.

00:04:37:17 - 00:04:55:22
Sleepezi
Part of it is I is very meticulous, but I always forget that I have to do those things. Like because I'm like, oh my God, thank God the editing is over. And like, I'm at the end, my third, fourth passage is done, and then I sit down. I'm like, I just get to upload this thing now, right? And then.

00:04:55:24 - 00:04:57:26
Sleepezi
This spend like another.

00:04:58:02 - 00:04:59:07
Sleepezi
Too long is.

00:04:59:07 - 00:05:00:23
Sleepezi
The answer to your question. To be more.

00:05:00:23 - 00:05:01:17
Sleepezi
Direct.

00:05:01:20 - 00:05:08:22
Evan
We we we need to step up our time stamp game because I, I was like, I know this took forever.

00:05:08:24 - 00:05:14:16
Sleepezi
Like we're full where they helpful and they are helpful. Yeah. Okay.

00:05:14:19 - 00:05:30:21
Wade
I cannot tell you how many times I've gone back and been like, okay, I need that one piece of Loveless, and then I'll go to like minute, you know, minute 44 of our two and it's like, whoa, that's that's exactly what I need. And so that that timestamp saved my life a couple times for those five minutes.

00:05:30:21 - 00:05:38:14
Evan
Of my life, at least for those of you who don't know, sleep easy here, has videos that are hour 45 hour. What's your longest one? Do you know.

00:05:38:14 - 00:05:39:25
Sleepezi
Off the top? My longest one.

00:05:39:25 - 00:05:59:18
Sleepezi
Is is five hours long. And that was the last biggest chunk one that I did. I yeah. So, yeah, I've been making those video essays for quite a bit of time, but I always felt like each one kind of needed to either there was more to elaborate on, or just trying to step up the game each time.

00:05:59:18 - 00:06:02:13
Sleepezi
I think five hours is the cap algorithm.

00:06:02:15 - 00:06:03:22
Sleepezi
But his point.

00:06:03:25 - 00:06:24:05
Evan
Is, timestamps are like you can click on just every single spot in the video and it'll go by topic. And they're super well organized. And if you haven't ever done time stamping in YouTube in the editing process, when he talks about being done with the edit and then feeling he can just click upload and then he realizes he has to spend hours more like meticulously time stamping everything.

00:06:24:09 - 00:06:31:23
Evan
It's amazing. We get some comments about our time stamps. You can very clearly tell wait and I are not time hours.

00:06:31:25 - 00:06:33:09
Sleepezi
We are not everybody.

00:06:33:13 - 00:06:37:23
Evan
Like it's not this time stamp stuff and we're like, I just edit it, spit it out.

00:06:37:23 - 00:06:42:07
Wade
You're going to do 35 minutes on one topic and then about an hour and a half on the next, and that's it.

00:06:42:09 - 00:06:49:20
Evan
And that's what you get. And you know what? You can link the time stamp in the comments. But we're on to the next video. So we're a high volume game.

00:06:49:22 - 00:06:59:15
Wade
It's like I tell my niece, right, you get what you get and you don't throw a fit, okay? That's all of the people on YouTube. You give it, you get, you don't throw a fit. So good.

00:06:59:15 - 00:07:01:04
Sleepezi
Luck. I don't typically.

00:07:01:10 - 00:07:26:15
Sleepezi
Take myself as, like, much of, like, a detail oriented person in my regular life. but as you are saying this, I'm also thinking to myself, I also, like, just write the script out, script out that way. And then when I do the other passes, I do just start marking time. And even from for me, during like the writing process, it's it's helpful just to be like, did I spend did I have I already said this before?

00:07:26:16 - 00:07:38:17
Sleepezi
Like, am I am I elaborating on a point that I've already made, which I do a lot, and a lot of the videos which contributes to the length? but, it is an a way helpful for me to just kind of keep track of myself too.

00:07:38:18 - 00:07:51:26
Evan
So where does that history come from? Is that from something that you studied in school? Is it just kind of maybe how you've always been with things that you're passionate about? But that level of detail and especially with like the film and the time stamping, what's that.

00:07:51:26 - 00:07:57:20
Sleepezi
Background that is? I just really I don't.

00:07:57:20 - 00:08:20:29
Sleepezi
Typically get like that with anything else. I, I'm just very passionate about, the, the video making process. And I think that that was something that when I did discover film and like editing and all these things and writing, I had been an illustrator prior, and it didn't have the same sort of meticulous sort of nature to it for me.

00:08:20:29 - 00:08:44:02
Sleepezi
Like it was just something that was an outlet for expression and, and fun. I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it, and I, I value that now. The ability to just like, you know, let go and have fun. But when I'm, when I'm editing or I'm creating something, it, it just in my mind deserves the time it like it has to it, it has to matter to me and everything.

00:08:44:02 - 00:09:10:01
Sleepezi
Every part of it has to matter. So like just the time stamps, and also its respect for the material in the same way, I think it's one of the reasons why I haven't, like, made a rebirth video yet is, is that rebirth is so intense for, in every aspect of how it was made is, is that I also think that if I'm going to make a video on on that it has to match that.

00:09:10:04 - 00:09:12:23
Sleepezi
and of creative energy and.

00:09:12:25 - 00:09:15:23
Sleepezi
Frankly, I don't at the time,

00:09:15:25 - 00:09:29:19
Sleepezi
Don't have that energy in me right now, but, it does just come from that place of like, everything needs to be intentional on my end to, to properly, express my love for the thing that I'm talking about.

00:09:29:24 - 00:09:31:18
Evan
I love that, yeah.

00:09:31:18 - 00:09:51:10
Wade
I mean, I think that every time I watch one of your videos, I'm kind of blown away by the level of intention that you put into things. I mean, not not just the details, but even the the sequencing of the music and the, the video syncing up with the things that you're saying, the themes and the the things you're drawing out.

00:09:51:13 - 00:10:11:13
Wade
one in particular comes to mind when you start talking about the tessellations and then moving between those, the instances and Advent Children and the ways that it shows up in the remake compilation. And I cannot imagine all of the time that it took for you to just not only notice those things, but to compile it all.

00:10:11:16 - 00:10:39:11
Wade
And so you, you really come in with this like almost 30,000ft thesis, right? And then you're able to swoop down and bring us down to the ground level and then help us to see that, that whole picture. And I'm just curious, was this something that really hit with you when you began playing through with questions of remake, or was this something you were already thinking about with seven before that, and then kind of moved into content creation?

00:10:39:11 - 00:10:43:25
Wade
We'd love to hear how you started making content on seven.

00:10:43:28 - 00:10:45:03
Sleepezi
So,

00:10:45:06 - 00:11:19:14
Sleepezi
To answer the the last part of that question, no, I didn't I didn't really come into to seven with the, the understanding of the compilation or even the original game that much. it was a very, it was like a lightning in a bottle sort of moment, I think, for me. And it felt that way at the time where obviously we were all kind of sitting, in, in Covid, and prior to that, like I had sort of mentioned already, I, I went to school for film.

00:11:19:14 - 00:11:46:14
Sleepezi
I wasn't really using any of that knowledge, but I had sort of like amassed a lot of skills that I just we're going nowhere towards the career that I was actually in. but I always knew that if I could just find a way to find an outlet that sort of fit everything together, I would find some sort of, you know, that proper, like, avenue that release that I was sort of looking for.

00:11:46:14 - 00:12:11:10
Sleepezi
So, I also have a background of not, like, playing games as much as I have played a lot of games in my spare time, but my, my sort of base memory and my love for video gaming comes from my older brother. he, would play the RPGs, and I would watch him play them because I didn't have, quite the patience that he did for them.

00:12:11:12 - 00:12:34:00
Sleepezi
and I was very invested in the story and, like, what was happening with the characters, the character designs, because I was an illustrator in Nomura, like, without even knowing who he was, I was also taking from, like, that avenue, that he was creating from and, yeah, just all of those stories did shape sort of who I was as an artist, before I even knew about them.

00:12:34:00 - 00:12:59:25
Sleepezi
But, with RPGs kind of going into the future, I never really felt like I was going to ever play one. But then final Fantasy seven remake came around and I was like, this is perfect. I finally kind of get to play this action RPG, which I was much more familiar with genre wise. I was able to sort of be like, oh, I will just play this.

00:12:59:28 - 00:13:17:28
Sleepezi
But, I actually started watching Maximilian Dude around the same time, and he was getting into his Final Fantasy seven playthrough. and just talking about remake, not knowing, by the way, I'm in my mind, which I know loosely what the story was of seven just because my brother had played it.

00:13:20:22 - 00:13:24:01
Sleepezi
that things were going to be different. and then as soon.

00:13:24:01 - 00:13:25:14
Sleepezi
As.

00:13:25:16 - 00:13:51:23
Sleepezi
The whispers came up, and remake, I just it just something happened in my head where, I was just like, I really want to understand what these things are like. Why? The question was just why for everybody? Like, why are these things here? And then I think what tipped it completely over the edge was Advent Children's involvement.

00:13:51:23 - 00:14:14:19
Sleepezi
Somehow with the ending, as, the, the whispers were brown, and the rest of them that sort of show up at the end are sort of shadows or, or mimics of, the Dodge laws and yuzu from Advent Children. So I was like, oh, so there's this entire world of Final Fantasy seven that I didn't even know about.

00:14:14:19 - 00:14:36:22
Sleepezi
I had seen Advent Children. but I hadn't, you know, really looked into it more than just like the first watch event. And I was like, oh, but there's like 4 or 5 other games that people are just not talking about. And from there it was like a gold mine. It was it was just like research, obsessive research.

00:14:36:25 - 00:14:40:14
Sleepezi
I should say, not regular research, because I had.

00:14:40:14 - 00:15:00:14
Sleepezi
So much time on my hands, I just, I sat down with, like, a notebook in front of me, and I sat on my couch, and I just turned on every, like, full, like, cut scene YouTube video and just watched all of them. And then I would just watch them again, and then.

00:15:00:16 - 00:15:01:22
Sleepezi
Why would you.

00:15:01:22 - 00:15:09:08
Wade
Why were you taking notes on this? Were you preparing for YouTube videos, or was this just your own personal research? What what was that?

00:15:09:10 - 00:15:12:10
Sleepezi
It was a part of it was wanting.

00:15:12:12 - 00:15:32:14
Sleepezi
So because I was involved in in the stream at these streams of people playing the game and sort of discovering the ending, I and people talk about just like watching like the, the trailer for the game and how impactful that was. I was obsessed with seeing people's reactions to this ending and wanting to talk about it with somebody.

00:15:32:14 - 00:15:43:25
Sleepezi
And I felt like I was like, I can't there's I can't engage with 10,000, chat people. once. It just kind of becomes white noise.

00:15:44:01 - 00:15:44:22
Wade
Yeah.

00:15:44:25 - 00:16:03:02
Sleepezi
At a certain point, when you're talking to like, you know, in a Twitch chat that big, and I didn't really have, like, any form outlets or any friends that were particularly connected to, the game. And I just thought to myself, because I had thought about doing YouTube before, I was like, this is this is it.

00:16:03:05 - 00:16:30:07
Sleepezi
Like, this needs to be the moment where I, like, pull the trigger on on this. And, if I was going to be talking about something, it seemed just like the perfect moment to be doing that. so it really was for, like. But I felt like I had to come in prepared. and I, I was very obsessive with, like, movie analytics and stuff like that in the past.

00:16:30:07 - 00:16:57:28
Sleepezi
Like, I would sit there again, very obsessive behavior. I don't recommend this for anybody. But like, I would like go through like movies, frame by frame to do like, like essays on those in college and like picking out things in the background that you're not supposed to see, like, you know, film people in the background. Just I was very focused on the visual language of storytelling, and that meant really analyzing everything that was showing up in every frame of every movie.

00:16:57:28 - 00:17:32:06
Sleepezi
And then my mind just turned into everything is very contentful, and you have to view it. That way. So it was the same approach that I was trying to take to making. My content is, is that I wanted to sit there and really like because and also like we also have to put this in the perspective of back in the day when remake came out is, is that crisis core was not looked at in the, in the sphere of the people that I was talking about as this revered piece of art that needed to be understood and, and explained to people.

00:17:32:09 - 00:17:34:04
Sleepezi
Kind of really didn't.

00:17:34:04 - 00:17:37:08
Sleepezi
Have a good opinion about these compilation titles. So the idea.

00:17:37:08 - 00:17:38:12
Sleepezi
Of even.

00:17:38:14 - 00:17:51:20
Sleepezi
Looking into them, which was not in my on my radar at the moment, I was just like, look at all these other side content movies or games that need to sort of be explored. I didn't realize that they had baggage with them, at the time.

00:17:51:20 - 00:18:03:00
Evan
Could maybe, could you to maybe talk a little bit about, for those who may not know, what the kind of critical reception and what that baggage would be, just super briefly so that everybody's kind of on the same page.

00:18:03:02 - 00:18:05:16
Sleepezi
You want to take that first?

00:18:05:16 - 00:18:27:11
Wade
I mean, I can. So, Crisis Core was released, as a prequel to the original Final Fantasy seven. I think it was in the early 2000, like mid 2000 or something like that. And it was released, specifically on the PSP or the PlayStation portable. Okay. And,

00:18:27:14 - 00:18:28:06
Sleepezi
Like that.

00:18:28:08 - 00:19:00:20
Wade
It how do I say this? It introduced new elements, new characters and new dynamics that seemed to, subvert some of the original incidents of the, the original Final Fantasy seven, introducing characters like Genesis and then Jill, and and Sesuai for that matter. but really expanding on this character, Zack, who, gets like less than five, ten minutes screen time in the original Final Fantasy seven, right?

00:19:00:23 - 00:19:18:23
Wade
so people didn't know I, I liken it to a cognitive dissonance that people had. It's like, hey, are they changing this game that I love? How does all of this reckon with it? And so there was a lot of, coping going on with that. It was not very strongly loved.

00:19:18:25 - 00:19:23:04
Evan
Okay, we'll do this. We'll do this medical style. doctor sleep. Do you concur?

00:19:23:06 - 00:19:36:11
Sleepezi
Yeah, I concur completely. Okay. Great. With Genesis specifically, that's. Yeah, that's the heart of the issue right there. You see this spot on crisis core? It's it's Genesis. Okay.

00:19:36:14 - 00:20:19:27
Wade
So I mean, you you mentioned, you mentioned, you know, going back to crisis core, I feel like I've got to say to you, like, face to face here, you and something you said single handedly changed my opinion about crisis core, because I was always very shrugging of it. I think you were doing, like, a response or reflection video on Crisis Core Reunion, but you said that remake and the remake trilogy seems to serve as a sequel to Crisis Core, or Crisis Core is a prequel to the remake trilogy, and it completely transformed the way that I thought about Crisis Core, and now I appreciate that in a whole new way.

00:20:20:00 - 00:20:27:07
Wade
did you come to an appreciation of crisis core and acceptance of it, and how did you kind of do that?

00:20:27:09 - 00:20:50:29
Sleepezi
It's so funny that you said that because I actually during like the research of it, it was, I think, the last sort of game that I went to, out of, like the core, titles. So back then for me, it was, the original game. then it was Dirge of Cerberus and Adventure, and then Crisis Core was sort of like the last one I visited.

00:20:51:01 - 00:20:59:03
Sleepezi
so I think by the time that I had gotten to Crisis Core, I had kind of found myself really entangled in a lot of what.

00:20:59:03 - 00:20:59:22
Sleepezi
Having children.

00:20:59:22 - 00:21:22:15
Sleepezi
Was saying. And again, being somebody who wasn't familiar, as familiar, I think, as other people were with those titles, there's just so much to comb through. So by the time I got to Crisis Core, I, I did pick up some things from it, but I didn't look at it. I think as much as I probably should have back then.

00:21:22:15 - 00:21:40:20
Sleepezi
When I started, I found myself talking about the other titles a little bit more, but, I, I would will say that every time I go back to it, it just something else would come up or it would reveal something else and it'd be just like at like, am I starting.

00:21:40:20 - 00:21:48:01
Sleepezi
To love my son? You love this more than the other ones I like. I genuinely think that there.

00:21:48:03 - 00:22:13:25
Sleepezi
With the amount of intent, and there's so much intent in crisis core and definitely I think as remake was being played and I was looking in remake more, it just seemed that too many things from once I again was going back to crisis core. Too many things thematically were just lining up, lines of dialog, the way that people like the way that events were playing out.

00:22:13:28 - 00:22:42:02
Sleepezi
I was just like, there's so much here that can't be ignored. So by the time that I got to the five hour video that I made, I couldn't have the conversation that I wanted to have in that video about what I thought was really going on with the game without really spending. Like, I think it's like about 2 to 2 hours of just talking about crisis core and just really nailing down to the audience.

00:22:42:02 - 00:22:52:21
Sleepezi
It's like this game that you guys don't like, or just this game that you feel indifferent to really is like, regardless of your opinion, the pillar.

00:22:52:21 - 00:22:53:18
Sleepezi
Of.

00:22:53:20 - 00:23:13:09
Sleepezi
What you are now seeing. So regardless of whether you're on the boat or not, is one thing, but to really you need to put that aside and you need to understand, this game. So I literally just walked through it. But, even in that process, I still look back at crisis core, and I still think that there's more, more to talk about.

00:23:13:09 - 00:23:27:06
Sleepezi
But I think that to hear you say that like, oh, I your, opinion was changed about it and that in that regard really does make me happy because it feels like I kind of did that job a little bit.

00:23:27:08 - 00:23:46:07
Wade
So, you know, you nailed it. truthfully, because I went in pretty skeptical, to your to your video, not not because of anything, but because you spent so much time on crisis core. I was like, if he's going to talk about this like he's gotta to do some heavy lifting to get me on board, like I trust him because, like, I trust his content.

00:23:46:07 - 00:23:49:13
Wade
But my gosh, crisis core is a tough.

00:23:49:15 - 00:23:51:21
Sleepezi
Pill to swallow. But you did.

00:23:51:21 - 00:24:08:04
Wade
It. And that that was, as a as a guy that really likes good research, it was very clear that you had done all of the necessary prereqs to to really make that case and that thesis. A+ on that.

00:24:08:04 - 00:24:13:08
Sleepezi
I appreciate that. Now, coming from a teacher, I need that. I need that.

00:24:13:11 - 00:24:15:20
Sleepezi
Absolutely, professor. Thank you very much.

00:24:15:23 - 00:24:36:10
Evan
You said the statement. I felt like I had to be prepared as if you had something compelling you that was outside of your control, that you needed to be prepared, that it was out of respect for the material and the intention of the developers and the writers. Is that how you feel about other things in your life as well?

00:24:36:10 - 00:24:48:06
Evan
And where does that level of respect for authorship and creator ship kind of come from? Is that something from your past? Is that something that you grew to love, or were you always like that?

00:24:48:08 - 00:24:50:22
Sleepezi
that's a good question.

00:24:50:25 - 00:24:51:28
Sleepezi
I.

00:24:52:01 - 00:25:26:02
Sleepezi
Don't think that I am quite like that in other aspects of my life. I do think that art. There is a moment, where I was transitioning into college and I was an illustration, going in as an illustrator, and none of that was, again, very intentional. But when, I sat down, I was dancing with a bunch of film majors is what happened is I sat down and they were walking me through some of the color choices of this movie that we were watching, and I had never really this is not dawned on me yet.

00:25:26:02 - 00:25:53:13
Sleepezi
So I was, you know, 20. I think, sitting there and they were like, yeah. So like the background, like the reds that are being used are also telling the story of this movie called drive, which I recommend seeing if for anybody who wants to sort of get into pretty much the basis of what I do and like when talking about crisis core, it's very applicable to pretty much every art form, I think.

00:25:53:16 - 00:26:22:18
Sleepezi
but they were saying, yeah, they were describing that these colors, red and blue, were sort of signifiers of the story, even though there wasn't a lot of dialog going on. And it just clicked in that moment that everything I'd ever been inspired by probably had somebody sitting there in their chair, writer, director or an actor were making these choices creatively, and that there and then as the movie goes on, you're like that.

00:26:22:18 - 00:26:43:07
Sleepezi
It's right, because that the story is matching up with the way that these are being used. And so I revered that. I, I respect it, I, I only wish in my head that I also had the sort of, I do have the, the eye for it. but it was like I want to also do that too.

00:26:43:08 - 00:27:22:21
Sleepezi
So I think it because of the way it just clicked with all of my interests and it kind of made sense of everything that I had ever, like, been pursuing of, or people that I respected as artists. It just kind of elevated everything. So and then I think in any movie or any media since then, if if an artist is putting in that effort and I am recognizing that there is effort there and that they are meticulously paying attention to these small details, I think it's worth watching and discussing, even if it's not like, you know, maybe the greatest piece of media ever.

00:27:22:23 - 00:27:48:10
Sleepezi
I just have an immense amount of, admiration to be able to create that. So, the effort of, of meticulousness is more just me just being like, thank you for for making something that is engaging me on this level. Like, I don't I don't do a lot of those edits don't. Or the music choices that you guys were mentioning before.

00:27:48:12 - 00:28:24:03
Sleepezi
All of that is just from the game. And like how that made me feel and the choices that they made. So I think I want to show those. That effort also reflected in my video, so that people also are recognizing those same things. So in itself, it's also to me like a lesson, like editing that way, like talking about tessellations and all that other stuff and the music choices, it's all meant to flow and sort of, partner up with the themes that we're talking about in, like, any of the essays.

00:28:24:03 - 00:28:27:20
Sleepezi
So, only out of admiration.

00:28:27:23 - 00:28:55:17
Evan
There's so much charity and respect for, like, humans behind the art in your response and attitude that I think is just really admirable. and just gives energy. You know, when I hear you talking about it gives energy for me to look at things with that lens, because I think we move really quickly through life and we have a lot of media tossed our way, and a lot of things flash in front of all the different screens that we're in front of, and we're kind of on to the next thing.

00:28:55:17 - 00:29:20:08
Evan
But having that attitude of pause and intentionality and being present, is, is really cool. And I love the way that you shared that. I will share. My, my brother and I were on a vacation, and there was an elevator that we would always hop in, and when we were getting in the elevator, it was like a neon lights kind of kind of muted neon lights, and he would always slowly turn and look at me and go, I feel like I'm in a Nicolas Winding riff this movie right now.

00:29:20:10 - 00:29:33:11
Evan
But then he kept saying it, and then one of our other friends hopped in the elevator and it was just me and him and a couple other guys. My brother wasn't there and he goes, I feel like I'm in a Julia Louis-Dreyfus film right now.

00:29:33:14 - 00:29:36:07
Sleepezi
It's all a flick of all. I don't.

00:29:36:07 - 00:29:37:03
Sleepezi
Make sense now.

00:29:37:09 - 00:29:43:20
Evan
I just couldn't I that I couldn't stop laughing about that. So. No, that's that's really.

00:29:43:22 - 00:29:48:24
Sleepezi
That's so cute. I do. I did that stuff with my brother all the time, too.

00:29:48:26 - 00:30:01:28
Sleepezi
but, I think that's that's so funny. I'm so shocked that, people, make those kinds of connections to the fact that the brain is able to elevator scenes.

00:30:02:00 - 00:30:18:04
Evan
It's no elevators. If you see the movie drive, you know about the elevators. Yes, you will. You will not forget, about the elevators. Well, wait, I have a couple questions about, like, sparking creativity and things like that, but I wonder if there's anything that you're curious about before I get into this.

00:30:18:07 - 00:30:41:19
Wade
Well, you know, I I'm I'm struck by this is a question we have asked. a couple of times in the series, but it is the question of the intentionality of those that create the game. from the scenario writers to the, the cinematic directors, creative directors and all this. But it is the question of why are they telling the story in this particular way?

00:30:41:19 - 00:31:04:03
Wade
And I love that you have done this with with all of the Final Fantasy seven compilation. it seems. Why are they telling this story through remake in light of dirge, in light of crisis core? In light of all of this, this other stuff. And I found that that's a really particularly, helpful lens to to come at this series from.

00:31:04:03 - 00:31:27:01
Wade
And we'll certainly get into that answer and why you think so that's a little bit of preparation for you. So you can say, okay, why are they telling this story in this particular way? But from your background in both filmmaking, as is, and kind of like, thinking about that whole process, video creation, story crafting, all of that kind of stuff.

00:31:27:03 - 00:31:58:00
Wade
for our audience that is kind of thinking about this story. A Final Fantasy seven, how did you kind of cut your teeth on this sort of thing? What was the first story that you really noticed? Something like that. And you've mentioned drive you you've certainly talked about Final Fantasy seven. Was there a moment when you were a teenager or a kid and you were just like, there's something to this, and I want to wrestle it to the bottom and really figure it out.

00:31:58:03 - 00:32:21:02
Sleepezi
I think back when I was a teenager, I probably didn't really have. I think I always had media that I really connected to, like anime is like Cowboy Bebop or Neon Genesis Evangelion or even, I mentioned before this anime Die Buster that I really like, which also has a lot of color themes in it, which is, I think, obviously a theme.

00:32:21:05 - 00:32:23:02
Sleepezi
That keeps running through a lot of.

00:32:23:02 - 00:32:48:15
Sleepezi
The media that I talk about. But, this actually die Buster would probably be the choice. And it's just sort of the again, which is, again, a big discussion that I have and remake with like red and blue. I had it with, with drive. And it's the same with this, where I just the imagery was very captivating and a lot of anime does have like that sort of production value, depending on the production itself.

00:32:48:15 - 00:33:12:12
Sleepezi
But a lot of it is this variant sense and visual storytelling. Animation has so many layers to it because, you know, you are spending so much time on an image and a sequence that, seeing that sort of level of care put into something, is really interesting and really fun to pick apart. But, I think I would say probably anime in general is.

00:33:12:12 - 00:33:15:00
Sleepezi
A good answer to that question.

00:33:15:02 - 00:33:43:06
Sleepezi
there's something that, like, sticks with me, as I don't know if any of the audience has seen Cowboy Bebop, but, it is, space, cowboy sort of tale that's set in the future. And the main character, which never really resonated with me, when I first watched it. But, it was something that I did start to sort of, dwell on, but, the main character has a fake guy, Spike Spiegel.

00:33:43:08 - 00:34:12:07
Sleepezi
but it's sort of revealed at the very tail end that he's had this sort of eye replacement, and he, says that, ever since, like, I got this, I, you know, all I can. I can't stop thinking kind of about, like, these are his tragic backstory. and I was like, oh, so the way that the show frames it is that one eye, his realized human eye always is viewing the present.

00:34:12:07 - 00:34:39:19
Sleepezi
And and taking that. But the other eye, this fake eye that is a reminder of his tragic anime backstory is always peering into the past. And there's this underlying atmosphere throughout the entire show that all of these characters are sort of grappling with, you know, things that have happened, things that are sort of doomed to happen if stayed on this course, just for things that end in tragedy.

00:34:39:22 - 00:34:51:23
Sleepezi
that was one of the moments, I think, early on where it did sort of start resonating with me a little bit more of that. It's like, oh, there's like, I didn't know it at the time, but I was like, that's pretty cool.

00:34:51:25 - 00:34:53:24
Sleepezi
You know, this is they're thinking about this stuff.

00:34:53:29 - 00:35:03:11
Wade
This is a perfect example. Right. And so, this, this particular segment is for all of my students that are trying to make something out of seemingly nothing.

00:35:03:11 - 00:35:05:17
Sleepezi
Okay. So like here.

00:35:05:17 - 00:35:26:17
Wade
I this is the lens that we really try to talk about when people try to elevate conversations about things, hearing from you, it's about attention to detail and asking the question, why did they choose this detail to tell this story and what does it tell us about larger themes about, you know, our own lives, about the world around us?

00:35:26:17 - 00:35:52:12
Wade
How does it make sense of things that seem meaningless? a lot of times we make a lot about nothing, and we try to I get these in, in reflection papers in my classes, and it's like, no, no, no, no, no, this is not what we're talking about. Because it's just like kind of a you can always tell when somebody is trying to make something profound out of something that really isn't profound.

00:35:52:16 - 00:36:16:22
Wade
But what I love about your process is you look at things that are common, you look at colors, you look at, particular creative choices, and then you just pull that thread until maybe there is something there. And that that I think is such a great process for elevating conversation. So to all my students, if you're looking for that, look for the threads and just start pulling that.

00:36:16:22 - 00:36:19:24
Wade
That's a great thing. So thank you for that moment. Sleep.

00:36:19:26 - 00:36:24:00
Sleepezi
Of course. and I do because you actually.

00:36:24:02 - 00:36:40:28
Sleepezi
reminded me of something. This is a very easy thing. and it's something that I've been thinking about a lot because I've been thinking a lot about, like, rebirth, especially its opening, which can tell you a lot about, like, sort of the direction of where things go, because a lot of the setup is typically in the beginning.

00:36:41:01 - 00:37:10:24
Sleepezi
but the, the thing that I was thinking about what you said about, the meticulous research is, is that sometimes you're just looking in places that, you know, end up nowhere or end up going on to the back burner. So a lot of like, for instance, the last video that I did that was massive. A lot of that research was for things that I had done for like three videos back then, just never ended up having enough to talk about or enough to sort of like land somewhere conclusive or things like that.

00:37:10:24 - 00:37:21:20
Sleepezi
So sometimes it is just like an epiphany moment of like, this is what's happening. But there's one particular thing in Rebus beginning that I thought was very interesting. I was like, I don't.

00:37:21:20 - 00:37:22:08
Sleepezi
Know.

00:37:22:11 - 00:37:49:18
Sleepezi
Why they're doing this, but, it was the fact that there is this idea of rain, starting to pick up is, is that it's, at the beginning of Zach scene when we first see him at the end of remake, like, the clouds are rolling in and it begins to rain. And then, I think in, the, Zach scene where we finally see him for the first time and Earth is in his arms, it starts to rain.

00:37:49:18 - 00:38:02:24
Sleepezi
And then the scene immediately after it, the rain is picking up in calm, and then we cut to him and it's pouring rain and even clouds. First line is, it's. It's really coming down, And I'm thinking to myself.

00:38:02:24 - 00:38:09:07
Sleepezi
Why does that matter? Why is this a constant choice?

00:38:09:09 - 00:38:36:01
Sleepezi
and then it started to because we all know that these moments are connected. But because of this discussion of layers of reality are coming up. Is is that it's oh, these are all connected. One is affecting the other, it's all somehow linked, and it's not coming out and saying that, but just through the sequence of events and the way that the, the sequence flows, it does feel natural.

00:38:36:01 - 00:38:42:24
Sleepezi
You just might not realize it. And I, that was something that came to mind as you were talking about sort of.

00:38:42:24 - 00:38:52:19
Wade
I had never thought about that. I'm going to have to go watch those cut scenes about a billion more times. I thought I'd watch them enough, but that is a huge thread. Oh my gosh, thank you for.

00:38:52:20 - 00:38:54:19
Sleepezi
Yeah, it's really fun.

00:38:54:22 - 00:39:01:11
Evan
I wonder if from your perspective, if you could talk about the medium, video games a little bit.

00:39:01:18 - 00:39:04:10
Sleepezi
Specifically in this set with.

00:39:04:13 - 00:39:23:04
Evan
Film and TV, it's better to show, don't tell. Like, you know, you have the ability to show so you can show and you don't have to necessarily say it right. You don't have to say it explicitly. Through dialog, you can demonstrate something visually. It seems that video games add this element where you have a story and you're following it, and there can be dialog.

00:39:23:04 - 00:39:46:01
Evan
You can have a show where something can happen on the screen, and a cut scene, but then you have this other element that isn't present in film or books where you can say, show, don't tell, but also now experience or choose or live. I wonder from a storytelling and the way that people can engage with the meaning behind some of the decisions that developers make.

00:39:46:06 - 00:39:54:12
Evan
What you think as you've kind of grown in your experience with video games you think makes that unique and how it's impacted you.

00:39:54:15 - 00:40:13:04
Sleepezi
I think just because they are different mediums just by default, like the way that storytelling unfolds in video games is very different. And I think it probably has like the biggest advantage because like a lot of what we're talking about with like background imagery, colors is something that I don't think a typical audience needs to necessarily engage with.

00:40:13:04 - 00:40:16:06
Sleepezi
There are other elements of a story, like, for instance.

00:40:16:11 - 00:40:17:14
Sleepezi
Drive,

00:40:17:17 - 00:40:18:25
Sleepezi
Stars Ryan Gosling.

00:40:18:25 - 00:40:22:03
Sleepezi
You can just engage with that. You might just.

00:40:22:03 - 00:40:49:13
Sleepezi
Be in the theater to see him, because that is the power of like, you know, film or like an actor's presence. It's like, or you're just there because you want to see, like, you know, a heist movie or you're a fan of the directors, whatever it is. But I think typically people go into the theater and kind of shut their minds off and disengage, I think less than they are engaging, or they're just opening themselves up to just feel something, which is also very powerful.

00:40:49:15 - 00:41:17:04
Sleepezi
I think games force, intentionally force people to be engaged. so like really simple one is, the art of discovery and video games, which is often talked about as like sort of a, like a baseline teaching method of like intent in video games is, is that you, give a problem to the player to have them solve it, like a puzzle or something like that.

00:41:17:04 - 00:41:42:05
Sleepezi
And by them solving it, it makes them feel smarter. But that is something that they've gained. They've now learned something themselves. And because it's they're doing that, they figured it out. They hold a certain level of ownership over that thing. And I think the ownership of an idea or how it affects you personally is ultimately what, like all of these movies are trying to do.

00:41:42:05 - 00:42:16:24
Sleepezi
They're all trying to accomplish this, this goal of making you feel something. but video games just does it so effortlessly. So I don't think that that was like the intent originally when games were coming out. It's like just this visceral thing. But I think something as simple as like, for instance, like one of the and this is something I was going to mention before, but like one of the earliest games, I remember playing or watching was Chrono Cross, which is the, not so favorable sequel of a very famous, game that I did not.

00:42:16:24 - 00:42:17:22
Sleepezi
Know about.

00:42:17:24 - 00:42:19:13
Wade
Until you did not play Chrono Trigger.

00:42:19:13 - 00:42:20:08
Sleepezi
Before it did not a.

00:42:20:10 - 00:42:21:22
Wade
Chrono Cross. Wow.

00:42:21:24 - 00:42:22:29
Sleepezi
It was the first.

00:42:22:29 - 00:42:26:01
Sleepezi
And it was the same thing with Xeno Saga.

00:42:26:03 - 00:42:27:13
Sleepezi
And I didn't even know.

00:42:27:13 - 00:42:28:22
Sleepezi
Xeno Gears was a thing.

00:42:28:22 - 00:42:36:03
Sleepezi
I didn't know the whole trigger. It was Irish Strikes Back. We're just gonna work our way back. but it was that.

00:42:36:03 - 00:43:00:25
Sleepezi
Moment, and it is a moment that I experience in Chrono Cross before I, experience it more in like seven, because I think it was more of a seven move. But there is a moment in that game where you, as the protagonist, become the antagonist, antagonist, and you have to fight your party that you have literally been building this entire time, and you get destroyed.

00:43:01:01 - 00:43:10:10
Sleepezi
But the moment right before that is is that you? There's like a flash on the screen, and then you try and move your character and you end up moving the antagonist instead, and you're like.

00:43:10:13 - 00:43:12:18
Evan
Oh, oh, fuck.

00:43:12:20 - 00:43:17:10
Sleepezi
Powerful moment. Right? Very powerful. But just that moment.

00:43:17:10 - 00:43:23:01
Sleepezi
Of being like. And then realizing that you've lost all this progress. It's just it's a very.

00:43:23:03 - 00:43:24:07
Sleepezi
Profound.

00:43:24:07 - 00:43:54:07
Sleepezi
Moment because you are the person who earned this stuff. You are the person, and then it just furthers investment. So I think that that's also just a rope it back into rebirth. Why rebirth is so amazing as a video game. Because by itself it is an amazing video game. You really don't need to engage, you know, this really heady other element of it and analyze, you know, when the rain falls at the beginning of the game to really enjoy the experience.

00:43:54:07 - 00:44:18:19
Sleepezi
But, it's because it's doing all of these things and it's delivering all of these experiences at the same time. It just, I think at some point in the game, and I was as I was playing it, it's like, I think the art of rebirth is by the end of it, even if you don't feel like you understand the minutia of the compilation or anything like that, I think.

00:44:18:22 - 00:44:19:17
Sleepezi
The player.

00:44:19:17 - 00:44:46:23
Sleepezi
Understands that all of the elements that they have experience have built up thematically, gameplay wise and story wise to that conclusion. And I think that in itself, just to make any art like honest, like a gamer, a regular gamer, have that moment is the power of the game. it's very powerful. I can talk about that for another five hours.

00:44:46:25 - 00:45:17:22
Evan
Say so. Well said. I just, I really I really enjoy the way that you kind of take these concepts and are able to interweave their individual components of my experience. And you're saying it and I'm going, yep. He's right. Yep, yep. Oh yeah. That is how I felt. Oh I did feel satisfied. And the reason I felt satisfied is this or the reason I felt unsatisfied, which I think is the challenging part with the critical is why did I not feel satisfied with the story.

00:45:17:28 - 00:45:20:23
Evan
And we kind of just lash out at each other online all the.

00:45:20:23 - 00:45:24:09
Sleepezi
Time, because we're ultimately that's the.

00:45:24:11 - 00:45:26:16
Sleepezi
Typical way to do it. Yeah.

00:45:26:18 - 00:45:31:12
Evan
That I think that that for me is, I just really enjoy the way that you explain that.

00:45:31:15 - 00:45:33:24
Sleepezi
I mean, I think it's also just to.

00:45:33:24 - 00:45:58:12
Sleepezi
Do with, like, the truth of what we're talking about. I think going back just really quickly to like, why there's so much reverence for these artists is, is that they are just trying to say something honest, like, I don't think anybody attached to the remake project or the rebirth project are trying to do anything malicious with the direction that they're taking the game, and if it's not malicious, then what are they doing?

00:45:58:13 - 00:46:21:04
Sleepezi
They're obviously treating it with some level of respect. And so if you just know that that's not where they're coming from, it really does make it very easy to be like even if you don't understand something, you know that there's a reason why they did it. So if you know that, then why aren't we looking for the answer to that?

00:46:21:04 - 00:46:24:10
Sleepezi
That's my question. Yeah, but not typical.

00:46:24:12 - 00:46:48:20
Wade
You've hit something really important, for fandoms in general. Right. and this happens in Final Fantasy, Star Wars. Lord of the rings with the new Rings of Power series and all of this, and somehow you've been able to adopt an assumption of positive intent for the creators of this series. How did you do that? Because a lot of times people.

00:46:48:20 - 00:46:52:24
Sleepezi
Do step by step, step by step. It's like, is.

00:46:52:26 - 00:47:12:02
Wade
It because, I mean, you you're on online discourse, you hear this stuff and there is a whole idea of they're ruining this thing, even though they're co-creators of the original. You know, how how do you do that and assume positive intent in the face of things that really call that into question?

00:47:12:05 - 00:47:36:25
Sleepezi
I definitely don't want to, I will I will start off by saying is, is that I think at some point during research, I so I'm perfect story. So as an example of this, I when I started off creating, content, a lot of my introduction to the larger fan base of the community of Final Fantasy seven.

00:47:36:27 - 00:47:38:23
Sleepezi
Was seeing.

00:47:38:26 - 00:48:00:16
Sleepezi
My, content weaponized to a certain degree, to sort of disprove other people's thoughts or to dissuade them from thinking one way or the other about the game where it's like, this guy has already figured it out, or, you know, Max has this figured out or whoever you were like kind of following at the time. That was kind of how a lot of theory crafting in general was being treated.

00:48:00:16 - 00:48:12:26
Sleepezi
And to a point where it was like genuinely, I think, messing with creators who are just trying to speak their mind at the time about how they felt negatively, maybe even perhaps about the game.

00:48:12:28 - 00:48:15:11
Sleepezi
And that's not.

00:48:15:14 - 00:48:31:08
Sleepezi
Where anyone is coming from when they're making this. I started making the content, based off of the passion for just the information. like wanting to tell people. I just wanted people so badly to know that there were.

00:48:31:11 - 00:48:32:19
Sleepezi
This there's this whole.

00:48:32:19 - 00:48:44:22
Sleepezi
Other perspective to have on this game, because no one has looked at this stuff. But again, it was like, for a lot of people, it was like having like a plate with like a little cloth over it and being like, look.

00:48:44:22 - 00:48:56:07
Sleepezi
At this turd racist score. And everyone's like, we don't want to fucking talk about that. but there is, there is that sort of,

00:48:56:10 - 00:49:19:27
Sleepezi
Idea of information or just the wrong impression of something that people kind of carry, just by default, because maybe, like you said, maybe it just like, changed something that, that made it feel ill intent for. I didn't come in with the two Final Fantasy seven with any of that baggage. So everything was fair game? No, there was.

00:49:19:27 - 00:49:21:07
Sleepezi
No right.

00:49:21:07 - 00:49:43:15
Sleepezi
Or wrong answer. And I think that's where every time I go into something, it's like, I will try and I like I go in with my own hypothesis. I went in with a hypothesis about rebirth. Not every idea was right, but there are like things that just. And I know that people say this a lot about rebirth, but like, that game was directly speaking to me.

00:49:43:15 - 00:50:05:07
Sleepezi
It felt like through most of it, like concepts of dreams, like, which is a concept from crisis core. It's like, maybe I didn't think of like the exact ending, but it was just the fact that it's like, no, all of these pieces eventually fit, and no one is right or wrong about this, but just being okay with stepping forward and being like, this is my idea.

00:50:05:07 - 00:50:32:06
Sleepezi
I could be right or wrong. It just doesn't matter. I think that that's where you kind of get into the like the online discourse thing about like right and wrong answers of things where people really start to get hung up on something. You can't go in with their attitude. I think especially in like a back and forth discussion, which is, I think at the end of the day, what I wanted to have, which I really just wanted to have a conversation like this, talking about the game.

00:50:32:06 - 00:50:52:20
Sleepezi
And I think if you're going in with that mindset to anything, I think it makes things a lot less, I don't know, agitating, aggressive. But I'm not above it either. There are times where I wake up on the wrong side of the bed and sure, like I'm like, you know, say, say something I don't want to say, but it never really should be weaponized like that.

00:50:52:20 - 00:50:59:03
Sleepezi
No one is coming at something if they didn't like it. They're not trying to attack you. Some people are.

00:50:59:05 - 00:51:02:15
Sleepezi
Still. Yeah, you're right. I think making the point.

00:51:02:18 - 00:51:25:15
Wade
It reminds me that there is an art to curiosity, and it's something that we have to work at. because our default mode is to protect what we already know. And in light of new information, some days, maybe because I've woke up on the wrong side of the bed or whatever it is I don't want to take the effort to ask the questions to discover the world around me.

00:51:25:17 - 00:51:56:12
Wade
And so like that. That does become like an interior sort of sort of, maintenance problem. It's like, okay, why am I so, like, resistant to this? Like, I may be proven wrong and all this, but like, there's something valuable in the discussion. we've had people on, on this show that, hopefully nobody can really tell where I sit or where I don't on on ideas because we're trying to curate as many different lenses and ideas as possible here, because we're trying to foster curiosity.

00:51:56:12 - 00:52:08:02
Wade
I at this point, I don't know if anybody has the answers, but it's interesting to listen and to learn from one another. So, it's a muscle that you've got to work out. I've found,

00:52:08:04 - 00:52:15:16
Sleepezi
And if anything artificial. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah. God, they can.

00:52:15:24 - 00:52:16:13
Sleepezi
I agree.

00:52:16:17 - 00:52:16:24
Evan
It's.

00:52:16:24 - 00:52:17:13
Sleepezi
Terrifying. How do you.

00:52:17:13 - 00:52:19:05
Sleepezi
Offer? Why do I know you?

00:52:19:07 - 00:52:20:22
Evan
It's because you've never.

00:52:20:22 - 00:52:28:05
Sleepezi
Used, That's what. Fantastic. there is something that.

00:52:28:07 - 00:52:48:10
Sleepezi
You you did make me think of just because, like, again, what you were saying curation wise, all of the creators that you guys have brought together are. I Revere in different ways. And I think even like you as well. And you as well, even, with this series. Well, like, you guys all have these strengths that I truly admire.

00:52:48:10 - 00:53:13:18
Sleepezi
And I think that's also something that I go into a conversation thinking about a lot of the time, because I'm naturally just incredibly curious, about people to my own detriment. I can be very curious. but the, point of that is, is that but when I look at like Ryan, for instance, and NSP, if I look at him, he's just got like a laser sharp focus and intent, like at anything he could say.

00:53:13:18 - 00:53:14:25
Sleepezi
I could just believe.

00:53:14:28 - 00:53:17:14
Sleepezi
Like, yeah, he's very.

00:53:17:17 - 00:53:42:02
Sleepezi
Certain of his opinion and I love that about him. but just knowing that other people, other creators have like all these different strengths and maybe different weaknesses, but they're all leaning on these strengths so intensely is also something that I try and go into conversations thinking about is like, maybe, you know, this person's experience of this game is not the same experience I had.

00:53:42:02 - 00:54:00:04
Sleepezi
Like, for instance, I didn't play during the Cerberus crisis core. I don't have years of baggage that all these people have. So when people say to me that they don't like these games, I believe them. And I also don't fault them for it. I don't think that it's their fault, or my fault for liking it. So.

00:54:00:07 - 00:54:05:15
Evan
But what I go ahead. No, you.

00:54:05:18 - 00:54:07:02
Sleepezi
Okay? Well, I.

00:54:07:04 - 00:54:09:17
Wade
Was I'm ready to shift over in time.

00:54:09:24 - 00:54:11:17
Evan
We were headed the same direction.

00:54:11:20 - 00:54:12:10
Wade
Okay. Yes.

00:54:12:16 - 00:54:23:21
Evan
Good. I think this would be a good opportunity for us to move into our mini game. Stretch, break, get to know each other a little bit, and then we can pick back up and shift gears, on our advent children's style motorcycle.

00:54:23:21 - 00:54:45:02
Evan
Okay everybody, it is that time in the episode for our mini game Stretch Break. And you know what that means? That means it's time to stretch a little bit, think about your body. Just probably been thinking about it. Some tension. That's what that that's just a big stretch. Really good. Just get some more awareness and some blood.

00:54:45:03 - 00:54:48:28
Wade
Oh the microphone is picking up every creak in my shoulders right?

00:54:49:00 - 00:54:49:17
Evan
Yeah.

00:54:49:19 - 00:54:50:23
Sleepezi
It's like an earthquake going.

00:54:50:23 - 00:55:05:09
Evan
On in my spine right now. Really. It is, it is. It is bad. but before we get into everything else, you guys know, we got to hit that theme music. Three, two one. Bam bam.

00:55:05:11 - 00:55:26:14
Evan
La la la. It's so good. Oh, no. It's completed. I know, so good. Everybody does the, Everybody does the Clark trick. The Schrodinger's baby seal trick. That pop that everybody is. He taught me. Yeah. Everyone's like, oh, yeah, you got to do it. You got to do it. Well, this is how the professionals do it. That's it, that's it.

00:55:26:22 - 00:55:41:24
Evan
Parently so. It said this is the bingo wheel of vulnerability. ladies, gentlemen, this is numbers one through 50. In here, we're going to all guess the number. And it's going to determine our question that we have here. What question are we pulling from today, Mr. Day?

00:55:41:24 - 00:55:55:28
Wade
We today we're going to be pulling from the Heroes Journal heroes playing our side quest deck. And so these are challenges, side quests for your everyday life. I use these in my classes. They make for some really fun, exciting challenges.

00:55:56:01 - 00:56:02:04
Evan
Here we go. Sleep easy. As our guest, you're going to get to pick the number first one through 50. What do you want? 3232.

00:56:02:04 - 00:56:04:03
Wade
Wait 16.

00:56:04:06 - 00:56:29:01
Evan
I'll take 37. All right, here we go. So easy. Just tell me when to stop. Oh, stop. All right. A ball has been. Oh, I think I found it a drop out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You launched out and left and I found it. Okay. I lost one for a long time with Jesse Cox in that interview. Okay, everybody say the numbers again.

00:56:29:04 - 00:56:45:17
Evan
62. The numbers 32, 32. This is the first. This is the first time this has ever happened. Oh. Oh my gosh. Won seven greatest day. Oh my gosh this is amazing.

00:56:45:21 - 00:56:46:26
Wade
We've waited for this.

00:56:46:27 - 00:56:57:29
Evan
Oh for a long I don't know. We never even talked about what would happen. What you do. Yeah I don't know. Like maybe we should remove the ball forever and forever.

00:56:57:29 - 00:56:59:06
Wade
In memorialize.

00:56:59:08 - 00:57:01:28
Evan
We're going to have to figure out what to do. You're gonna have to just.

00:57:01:28 - 00:57:02:19
Sleepezi
Send it to me.

00:57:02:19 - 00:57:18:13
Evan
I don't I don't yeah, I don't know. I'll keep it to do with myself right now. We weren't ready for that, I just. Yes. I can't believe it. I just I just want to ponder it. And here's for everyone. This is it. Reverse on the camera. No, it's.

00:57:18:13 - 00:57:19:26
Wade
No, it's okay ass.

00:57:20:01 - 00:57:28:07
Evan
I have my mirror and all of its glory. Dude, honestly, you know, I need to maybe send it to you and have you sign it and send it. I would love to. I will sign it. That would be a sign.

00:57:28:07 - 00:57:29:05
Sleepezi
That 32 ball.

00:57:29:05 - 00:57:34:29
Evan
Oh, I've never been so excited. Yeah, I just I was like, this made our day.

00:57:34:29 - 00:57:36:25
Wade
I don't know if you win anything, but you made.

00:57:37:00 - 00:57:43:03
Evan
The whole interview. All the thoughts. You know, that's the victory. He gets the number. Oh right.

00:57:43:07 - 00:58:00:28
Wade
So in that amount of time, I have been able to count out 32 cards from the side quest deck. And here is the side quest. so it's typically in the form of a challenge. I turned it into a form of a question. So the side quest is listen to an album start to finish, no pauses and no skips.

00:58:00:28 - 00:58:14:05
Wade
What is an album that you listen to? No skips, start to finish, no pauses. What is the point of the came? Just go for every single I got a couple.

00:58:14:07 - 00:58:17:22
Sleepezi
Electric Light Orchestra time is one that I like.

00:58:17:29 - 00:58:19:28
Evan
Oh, yellow. Yeah.

00:58:20:00 - 00:58:20:14
Sleepezi
Yeah.

00:58:20:14 - 00:58:31:03
Evan
Yellow choice. What is it about that album that, it's sticks out to you? Just anything that you like about it? It was, it did listen to it at a particular moment in your life.

00:58:31:06 - 00:59:04:24
Sleepezi
I did I, there's a particular animation, that, I think Nynex, shout out to the guy next did one of their first projects was, for a con that they did, and it has, like, you know, copyright out the window, like, you know, Superman shows up. Spider-Man, alien, Transformers, like, all of like it was for, like, some big con for, I guess, comic books in, like, media or something like that, that they just fan animated and they play that song in it.

00:59:04:24 - 00:59:20:12
Sleepezi
And I love the song. I thought it was very inspirational. And then, I just ended up going to the album and it just it always puts me exactly where I need to be mood wise. If I'm ever like, you know, out of funk or something like that. So.

00:59:20:14 - 00:59:22:23
Evan
Oh, that's great. That's mine.

00:59:22:25 - 00:59:24:25
Wade
So good. All right, Evan, what about you?

00:59:24:28 - 00:59:42:20
Evan
Ooh, I was between a couple. but actually. But I'm going to a soccer game after this, and my friend who's going with me to the soccer game just showed up at my front door, and he's the one who introduced me to one of the albums that I was going to pick between. And I'm going to take that as a sign that this is going to be my answer.

00:59:42:20 - 01:00:00:10
Evan
And it's Paul Simon's Graceland. I love, love, love Paul Simon's Graceland. so my friend who just came in is the one who introduced me to it. We used to listen to it in the mornings, and we were writing together in the car, and I'm just absolutely in love with it. So that would be my answer to this one.

01:00:00:14 - 01:00:04:27
Evan
Or or lateralis by tool.

01:00:04:29 - 01:00:05:14
Wade
Okay.

01:00:05:14 - 01:00:13:29
Evan
Another two excellent wild ends of the spectrum. Yeah. Very well. I was like wow I yeah. So what about you Wade?

01:00:14:02 - 01:00:24:09
Wade
Oh man. So I, I'm kind of torn between two as well. But they are from different points in my life. but the first one would be, John Mayer room for squares.

01:00:24:10 - 01:00:27:00
Evan
Oh yeah. It's just straight from my, like.

01:00:27:02 - 01:00:48:22
Wade
High school years. And I'm like, yeah, early college. Absolutely love it. Great time in my life that the other one that I like just will always listen to is The killers, Hot Fuzz. that album beginning to end. Nothing makes me more excited to work out than, Mr. Brightside. So I just listen. I remember I listen to that entire album every time I would go to the gym for.

01:00:48:22 - 01:01:08:01
Evan
Like making do. Yeah, I gotta go. Okay. Jazzercise thing. What is this? You have a weight? Yeah. So this is our stretch break. That's like everybody. Yeah. All right, now that we've got a coffee break from my, cover up. Mr.. For you, for instance.

01:01:08:01 - 01:01:10:07
Wade
Author. But you nail the killers.

01:01:10:07 - 01:01:27:00
Evan
Seven. Yeah, that's exactly it. Well, I don't know if the can, you know, where could pick that up. That'd be impressive. so let's get one more stretch, everybody. We just want to say we hope that you're having a great day wherever you find yourself. Thanks for participating in our mini game Stretch Break. Thanks to Sleep Easy for being our first ever bingo.

01:01:27:01 - 01:01:36:01
Evan
We love vulnerability winner. With the number 32. We'll figure out what we're going to do with this, but this is a momentous occasion and let's get in to the rest of the episode.

01:01:36:08 - 01:01:56:20
Wade
All right. Now, this is the moment that I've been waiting for personally. we've we've tried to establish your credibility as a creator. examine just all the ways that you think in the lenses. Now we've got it free. Can get to Final Fantasy seven rebirth. It's like I've been sitting here on all of these questions. I just want to ask one.

01:01:56:22 - 01:01:58:07
Evan
Then we'll end the interview.

01:01:58:09 - 01:02:11:16
Wade
In which we end. When you finish Final Fantasy seven rebirth. What was your immediate reaction? Were you elated? Were you confused? Depressed? Where were you.

01:02:11:19 - 01:02:14:09
Evan
Physically? What space were you in?

01:02:14:11 - 01:02:19:04
Sleepezi
I was in multiple different layers of reality all at once.

01:02:19:06 - 01:02:22:19
Wade
And that's the only right answer.

01:02:22:22 - 01:03:05:16
Sleepezi
There was definitely a sense of, like, calm for me. I felt like I had just played a game that had sort of was bigger than I ever could have anticipated. I always, I always went when I went into it, I was like, I have overthought this to death. and there's no way that this game can get anywhere near like, you know, maybe some of, like, the most fantastical elements of of what I had imagined in my, like, my most wildest anticipations of this thing.

01:03:05:16 - 01:03:41:27
Sleepezi
And from the beginning, especially in the end, I was just like I had developed such a fondness and I think, closeness to the language of the game, that it just everything as it was happening felt very straightforward for me, and not as confusing as I think that I was anticipating. but all for the right reasons. and also debatably and I'm sure people will definitely fight me on this.

01:03:41:29 - 01:04:08:03
Sleepezi
but, I walked away being like, I can't believe they didn't do this in the original Final Fantasy seven. Some of the decisions that they made. not the whisper part. I think I think we can all agree that that's not what people would have wanted, but the idea of cloud not being able to to address his feelings.

01:04:08:03 - 01:04:30:10
Sleepezi
I was like, this is this is the cloud. I know this is the cloud that I know has been going through all of this. Somebody who isn't able to face himself, like, why wouldn't that have happened when something so damaging just happened in front of him? to be.

01:04:30:13 - 01:04:31:02
Evan
Elaborate.

01:04:31:02 - 01:04:33:06
Sleepezi
On that a little bit more.

01:04:33:08 - 01:05:00:28
Sleepezi
just to say that, Eric's death, Jack's death being very similar. all hate Jack's death being repressed. And then Aerith in the original game, just being accepted and to not accept the death of this person felt very true to the character. to me, everything else was just, you know, my fanfiction that I always wanted to see happen.

01:05:01:00 - 01:05:01:21
Sleepezi
This is. No.

01:05:01:24 - 01:05:12:11
Evan
What was it about Cloud's behavior as a character? Maybe there were a few things that stuck out to you that let you know that he was unable to accept it. What were those clues for him?

01:05:12:12 - 01:05:48:28
Sleepezi
The clue was just not being able to hear himself speak like. And us being able to hear that moment. I think that was where it's like, we're not. He's not even able the to process the grief. The initial shock of grief completely dissipates. and I think this is also something that I love about the ending, and it was something that I kind of anticipated prior to getting to the ending is, is that I did not think that we were going to get the ending in the way that everybody wanted the ending to be.

01:05:49:00 - 01:06:16:18
Sleepezi
meaning that I was certain that the developers were going to make a decision intentionally to not make us as happy as we wanted to be made. because remake had kind of laid the groundwork for that specifically. but, I will actually rope this back into something that you've been getting into a little bit, professor. Not this, that I also picked up on.

01:06:16:18 - 01:06:47:06
Sleepezi
And I was like, that's it. That's that's the key. There is, there's a dialog the Earth has in the beginning where, of the game, when she's describing Sephiroth. talking about how he's not dead or alive, he's just kind of around. and the thing about Sephiroth as a character is, is that essentially every aspect of him is a reflection of a real thing that does exist as a function in the world.

01:06:47:13 - 01:07:22:16
Sleepezi
So Sephiroth is the shadow of cloud, for instance, is a very easy thing. He is the epitome of all of his desire of what he his image that he wanted to be. being Sephiroth was what cloud wanted to be when he grew up. and all of the horrible things that are sort of attached to that. So the point of that is, is that the feeling of around ness is the feeling that I got immediately when Aerith died is is that it wasn't?

01:07:22:18 - 01:07:56:09
Sleepezi
And there's another line that accompanies this in The temple of the ancients, where Aerith says that just because we know that our loved ones are like somewhere else, like in the live stream, doesn't make it easier to, like to stomach the loss of them or that they're not they're not here. And that's how Aerith just immediately starts to feel is, is that there's never the full effect of her after that scene there, her her presence in the party, her presence with cloud.

01:07:56:11 - 01:08:27:19
Sleepezi
It's never it doesn't feel natural or settled, and it actually does its best, I think, consciously, to not feel the same. It's trying so hard not to hit the mark, with that resonating feeling of comfort that she has been providing, for cloud so that everyone's like, this just doesn't feel right. And obviously we know that something is is is wrong.

01:08:27:22 - 01:08:54:11
Sleepezi
so it in that sense, we've kind of transitioned into that sort of Advent Children, Aerith and it actually adds such a huge weight to that depiction of that character. I saw Advent Children recently again in theaters. I'll discuss what I'm mentioning in regards to Advent Children is, in Advent Children, Earth does appear. She is still dead, but she you never see her face.

01:08:54:11 - 01:09:22:04
Sleepezi
She's just like a touch, a feeling like flowers around cloud. So like the smell of her flower. As is referenced by Marlene. And like, in the bars is that she smells like flowers. all of these senses of her are present, but she isn't necessarily so. She's just a presence. that I felt really nailed home. Exactly.

01:09:22:04 - 01:09:44:25
Sleepezi
What it needed to do for the audience is. Is that it really shot, shot off and, whatever direction. And I think it did elicit a lot of visceral reactions being like, we didn't get the water altar scene the way that we wanted it. We didn't get the burial scene, all of that very intentionally.

01:09:44:28 - 01:09:59:01
Wade
and so just to kind of recap, you are saying that the reason we didn't get the water altar scene, the burial scene, that sort of stuff, that is because why.

01:09:59:04 - 01:10:20:08
Sleepezi
Is because cloud just couldn't handle it. there's. And so I actually just started writing some thoughts about this recently because I kind of wanted to make a video about Aerith. Like, who is it? I think that that's what everyone is asking. That's the question that does get brought up all the time is who is the influencer here for cloud?

01:10:20:10 - 01:10:29:08
Sleepezi
And I wanted to say it's I just think it's completely Aerith, like fully Aerith. And I think not Sephiroth.

01:10:29:10 - 01:10:54:13
Wade
So this is why I asked that question, right? because like on the surface, it's very much like cloud can't handle this, but cuz the catalyst for that is is it cloud? Is it Sephiroth or Jenova intercepting, and creating this distortion, or is it Aerith and so if it's any of these, why, why why would they tell the story in this way?

01:10:54:16 - 01:10:58:04
Wade
using these characters and their motivations?

01:10:58:06 - 01:11:23:00
Sleepezi
So you've touched on something very like, a much larger conversation, and I will try and keep very, very contained to just kind of move forward here. but the the way that I look at intent in art, which is very reflected in Final Fantasy seven, is, is that every small decision is a representation of a larger choice.

01:11:23:06 - 01:12:01:18
Sleepezi
Okay. So in fantasy, this is why this is so powerful is because the character's feelings can ultimately be reflected on the largest sort of world scale function. in this instance, it's like the live stream, but in this instance it's very and this is something that I've brought up in so many videos is, is that, as an example and one of the very first like this is exactly what's happening sort of moment for me is that cloud's sort of inner battle with Sephiroth as depicted in the original game, is also noted as being the heart of the planet.

01:12:01:21 - 01:12:30:12
Sleepezi
So the psychological battle that cloud is facing this very personal battle of self, is also happening in the heart of the planet. in the life stream. and those two things always stood out to me as being like, well, if if this inner battle is affecting the entire world, then you can look at all of the functions as sort of a reflection of cloud.

01:12:30:15 - 01:13:04:25
Sleepezi
So one of the things that came up recently is, in an interview was that, the reason why Sephiroth has that line of like, I underestimated you with Aerith is, is that the the line specifically is mentioning the fact that Aerith has, thwarted his efforts of reunion. But when did she do that? Like, what part of that is because clearly, like the the landscape they're fighting on is also very similar to that mental battle.

01:13:04:27 - 01:13:41:10
Sleepezi
that Cloud and Sephiroth have now, you have Zack there, and you have all these and then Earth coming in. And so they in a very simple way, you could just say, these are people here helping defend Cloud's self from Sephiroth overtaking Cloud Self. which I think is is very well demonstrated. There. But the point is, is that I think overall Sephiroth needed this moment of suffering to happen in order to create this sort of larger world function.

01:13:41:10 - 01:13:52:17
Sleepezi
This reunion of worlds is all hinging on the fact of cloud not being able to deal with the suffering of Aerith. Yeah,

01:13:52:20 - 01:14:16:29
Wade
It's interesting because when, I guess at the beginning of chapter 14, after the dream sequence, Sephiroth and Cloud are flying through, the space between worlds, right? This white like backdrop or whatever. And several is saying to cloud, you know, again, lend me your strength. That whole, you know, script. And then he says, how stubborn of you.

01:14:16:29 - 01:14:45:00
Wade
It, perhaps you need a little push right? And then you move into this. And so it really does frame Sephiroth. the, killing of Aerith in a new way. That's like, okay, this is this is an intentionally targeted thing against cloud. It's not just that that she's the last, etc. that's important, but this is this is a targeted attack to break cloud.

01:14:45:00 - 01:14:46:18
Wade
Would that be a fair assessment?

01:14:46:21 - 01:15:06:22
Sleepezi
Okay, absolutely. I do think too, and sort of going back to something I mentioned before, which is, is that by the end of the game, the game is perfectly framed, that there are these two sides, there's this white and black sort of side, and that there is something that remake has mentioned and that is sort of touched on in rebirth is, is that there is this gray area.

01:15:06:25 - 01:15:20:16
Sleepezi
And I think that gray area is what has created all of this debate. As to Sephiroth and Aerith, because of the way her off kilter behavior. But something that I thought was incredibly touching.

01:15:20:17 - 01:15:23:17
Wade
You mean off kilter behavior? Describe for.

01:15:23:17 - 01:15:28:29
Sleepezi
So her dead eyes, the way you see she looks at cloud at.

01:15:28:29 - 01:15:31:02
Wade
Some point like in the ending particularly. Right.

01:15:31:02 - 01:15:58:21
Sleepezi
Yes. So there's there's something that, filmmaker thing is, is that highlights in the eyes are very important in recognizing humanity. More highlights kind of are used as a way of depicting, you know, animals. It makes them look more friendly, things like that. the lack of highlight in the eyes, is something that you intentionally do to make somebody look scarier or even, like, void of emotion.

01:15:58:23 - 01:16:26:26
Sleepezi
So, in that scene, that is dialed down, quite a bit for Aerith. And there is also, just in general in Final Fantasy seven, a very intent ful, effort to frame eyes is sort of human, and a window into humanity. So there are those like film references, but internal sort of logic of Final Fantasy seven to explain that.

01:16:26:26 - 01:16:37:10
Sleepezi
So there is this sort of off feeling that you get when she's interacting with cloud, because you also know that she is also dead. so there's, there's a couple of those things.

01:16:37:10 - 01:16:54:22
Evan
But, real quick, though, could you talk a little bit about when you say highlights in the eyes for people who don't know what you're talking about? If I was looking for like highlights in the eyes versus those being toned down, what specifically would look different about the eyes and how would you know what to look for as people go and replay that scene and watch things?

01:16:54:25 - 01:17:19:07
Sleepezi
So the white in the eyes that is being caught, like even in the light that I have here, is the the highlight of the eye, which is just being caused by just a source of light that is being directed the reflection off of the eyeball. So, there's that and then the lack of that, which is I'm doing a pretty you're doing job.

01:17:19:07 - 01:17:19:20
Wade
Yes. Right.

01:17:19:25 - 01:17:20:28
Evan
Yeah. Yeah. No.

01:17:20:28 - 01:17:31:11
Sleepezi
Exactly. Is is that it just makes my eyes noticeably darker. Yeah. And then less it and then obviously obscuring anything also creates a sort of.

01:17:31:13 - 01:17:33:26
Wade
You immediately look more sinister. Yeah.

01:17:34:03 - 01:17:36:01
Sleepezi
Thank you.

01:17:36:03 - 01:17:40:27
Evan
Well, that was what I was going to see. You look remarkably sinister this afternoon.

01:17:41:00 - 01:17:43:11
Sleepezi
Thank you.

01:17:43:13 - 01:17:45:22
Evan
Now that's great. That's super helpful. Sorry to distract.

01:17:45:22 - 01:18:07:02
Wade
You. Mentioned some things about color in the first part of the, the interview today. I wonder if you have any thoughts on the scenes where there is a rainbow reflection, because that's an interesting color choice. And I'm curious about your your thoughts on the intention of the directors.

01:18:07:04 - 01:18:25:25
Sleepezi
I think there was a very clear intention, for instance. So one of the things I paid a lot of attention to in and remake was, the flowers, I was very interested in following er, is flower and how it popped up in, in certain scenes.

01:18:25:27 - 01:18:26:19
Wade
You know.

01:18:26:21 - 01:18:50:23
Sleepezi
But there was also this other purple flower that is referenced on the back of Rufus is coin that I'm looking to, which is Amanda Gloria Flower, which is a, purple flower. That and purple being the sign of, of death. And I think they even mentioned it in an ode to mania that that's sort of like the reference that is being made, there.

01:18:50:26 - 01:19:11:28
Sleepezi
purple is a very notable color for Sephiroth, the Whisper, Harbinger, and all sorts of things. But I think, going away from remake, there was actually sort of the intent to show a variety of different flowers, multicolored flowers. Like one of the first quests that you do is like picking flowers with Aerith in, in the field again.

01:19:12:00 - 01:20:01:01
Sleepezi
But I think that they sort of broadened the spectrum of the focus of it. Obviously, Iris flower still holds the same meaning in that game, but I think the idea of rainbows as a color choice is to signify the, the variety of what the life stream ultimately holds as far as different types of people, different memories, different lives, different shades of life that those represent, whereas the color choices for these two worlds, for instance, that er, Sephiroth seemingly represent through these two different whispers are white and black, very basic extreme colors.

01:20:01:04 - 01:20:34:23
Sleepezi
And from what we even know of the original game, like for instance with like the weapons is and what we see end up happening with Holy is is that holy does not necessarily represent a good for all of humanity. It actually has the potential to completely destroy it. so there's that super far polarity of white and then black also being the self, the completed self of only Sephiroth, which is just evil incarnate, essentially, and just ego, which is something that you guys went into recently.

01:20:34:23 - 01:20:39:01
Sleepezi
So there's the one for one for all.

01:20:39:03 - 01:20:39:18
Wade
Yeah.

01:20:39:20 - 01:21:08:04
Sleepezi
Which is, you know, the Sephiroth sort of mentality of I'm only doing this for myself and all will just be me. And then what? Eric's world and sort of like what Zach and Cloud are fighting for, which is sort of the, the, lack of self, but still with expression in some, some way. and the meaning of that and the importance of that, being retained even after death is always a thing.

01:21:08:04 - 01:21:30:26
Sleepezi
That's it's been a very constant throughout Safran and Eric's conversations, too, of like, what they're ultimately trying to accomplish is sort of like one being acceptance of all life and death and the function of that. an aside and then the denial of those aspects and in off.

01:21:30:28 - 01:21:42:25
Wade
So what do you think? You know, that that's amazing, right? The acceptance of Aerith and the denial of Sephiroth. So what is Sephiroth trying to do?

01:21:42:27 - 01:22:10:22
Sleepezi
So very cool. representation of this is in the end of the end of the game. Is is that Sephiroth is all all present in front of all of the characters as a singular being. Ultimately, this is the goal is for him to be this sort of unified oneness that exists across all different layers of existence. Okay, and he's trying to unite those things.

01:22:10:24 - 01:22:37:22
Sleepezi
when characters hurt this version of saffron, it also hurts him in front of the other characters. So this is the the idea is, is that it all kind of stems from just him. whereas the other characters do not want that sort of singularity, that oneness in the way that it only revolves around Sephiroth. They want a world that is more sort of what it was.

01:22:37:24 - 01:22:54:02
Sleepezi
They just want things to be the same, where it is sort of a, collective choice, a collective movement of souls, not just revolving around one person, sort of one person's decisions, I think.

01:22:54:05 - 01:23:00:24
Wade
So that makes sense. I want to dig in there, because this is such a a very heady kind of concept.

01:23:00:25 - 01:23:08:08
Evan
Yeah. Let's make sure we've got it packaged. And then if you want to read the green, you want me to restate it before you, I would.

01:23:08:08 - 01:23:15:27
Wade
Love for you to restate it, even, as somebody that's on the kind of peripheral of the the deep one, the edge of the magic.

01:23:15:29 - 01:23:16:23
Evan
I'm on there. You dip in.

01:23:16:23 - 01:23:18:15
Sleepezi
Your toes in already.

01:23:18:17 - 01:23:27:07
Evan
Well, my feet are just a little flapping like a little duck. Just so this little guy just hanging out, trying to swim with the big sharks.

01:23:27:09 - 01:23:30:00
Sleepezi
so,

01:23:30:02 - 01:24:10:07
Evan
so gross oversimplification. You're implying that Sephiroth is attempting to combine everything into almost kind of one instance or singularity, and expression of things, and that the other characters are trying to maintain the way that they're expressed through the life stream in their variety and, different branching paths and possibilities. So one represents, finality and like a more linear and one represents kind of openness and that kind of manifestation of decision making that is more consistent with the way that the life stream exists in this story.

01:24:10:07 - 01:24:11:18
Evan
And setting.

01:24:11:20 - 01:24:48:19
Sleepezi
Yeah. Close. Definitely. Yeah. I think that it just it's also very well illustrated almost in the, in the scene that you already reference, knocked this, which is just the, the scene where they're flying through space and the fusion of these two sort of, worlds as it's depicted and screams that follow are literally just the idea of like that independent ideas like these different things just losing all meaning and just becoming this essentially just a tool for Sephiroth to use to further his own means.

01:24:48:19 - 01:25:15:13
Sleepezi
So it's not about the individual in the live stream. It's like, what can I use these for? For my own gain? rather than viewing them and savoring them? There's a line in and remake at the edge of the highway where, Aerith is very intently illustrating to cloud and the party that, these moments and memories are very precious and fleeting, mean nothing to Sephiroth.

01:25:15:13 - 01:25:42:01
Sleepezi
The only thing that matters to Sephiroth is, is that these concepts further his own life span, and that he he feels nothing that they are trying to express where Aerith is very tuned in and dialed into that sort of spiritual aspect and is feeling everything or just cherishing all of these things. That's why she's able to remain so present and in in remake and in the rest of the game.

01:25:42:07 - 01:25:58:03
Sleepezi
It's because she knows how valuable these moments that she will not have. At a certain point, she'll be disconnected, sort of how we see her and rebirth, why she's spending so much time being so and intent fall and, and, present.

01:25:58:05 - 01:26:31:25
Wade
So when Sephiroth is seeking to remake the world or remake, the live stream, in some ways, remake memories undo, unmake certain realities. How is this a benefit to him? is it to mitigate his own suffering by coercing other people's will, like, why does the manipulation of memories, collective memory in the live stream somehow benefit him?

01:26:31:27 - 01:26:42:22
Sleepezi
So the way that this is a really interesting way of looking at it. But one of the things that came up in on the way to a smile is the fact that,

01:26:42:25 - 01:26:44:24
Wade
On the whole, can you explain that.

01:26:44:28 - 01:27:14:09
Sleepezi
For you on the way to a smile is a, is the direct sequel to Final Fantasy seven, the original, and it leads into Advent Children and sort of gives the, reader a little bit of a window as to how Sephiroth can could have even shown up, after his death in the OG and Advent Children, which is sort of the story of Sephiroth coming back to life in some way is his return.

01:27:14:09 - 01:27:43:21
Sleepezi
His advent is why it's titled that, so in On the Way to a smile, as we know from the original game, Sephiroth is defeated. Cloud has sort of, overcome his his doubts of self and defeated him using Omni slash Sephiroth literally dissipating into the live stream, becoming lack of sapphire off the merging into the into the collective unconscious.

01:27:43:23 - 01:28:04:28
Sleepezi
of the live stream resists the flow of it. by abandoning all of. And I think that there's a line in this I might have misinterpreted as my memory is a little flaky. He loses his sort of memories of himself. They all sort of flood into the life stream. But the one thing that he does ground himself is with Cloud's memories of him.

01:28:04:28 - 01:28:33:09
Sleepezi
So it's not his memories that keep him alive. It's cloud directly. Cloud's memories in the live stream, that keep him grounded in his sense of self. The only thing that Sephiroth is concerned with is denying death. Sort of the satisfaction of ever sort of having any control over him. He is the dominant, he wants not he does not want to lose a sense of self.

01:28:33:11 - 01:28:57:07
Sleepezi
So whatever image of him that allows him to exist is enough satisfaction for him to continue to exist. So the way that on the way to a smile literally describes it as, as long as people remember him or the suffering that he's caused, he will continue to exist. That's what keeps him alive.

01:28:57:09 - 01:28:59:05
Evan
So Game and American Gods in.

01:28:59:05 - 01:29:00:19
Sleepezi
Their.

01:29:00:22 - 01:29:02:19
Wade
A little. Have you read American Gods?

01:29:02:20 - 01:29:03:10
Sleepezi
No.

01:29:03:13 - 01:29:03:25
Wade
Okay.

01:29:04:00 - 01:29:05:25
Sleepezi
I don't read.

01:29:05:28 - 01:29:08:20
Sleepezi
It except heaven.

01:29:08:22 - 01:29:29:01
Evan
It all comes back to that. The premise, the premise, of American Gods is that it's the worship and remembrance of gods that creates new ones or keeps them alive. So there's, like, Zeus and these old gods, that people worship, but then there's new gods that start to emerge like technology and internet and things like that.

01:29:29:07 - 01:29:32:16
Evan
Oh that's crazy. It's it's it's a great story. If you if.

01:29:32:19 - 01:29:33:03
Sleepezi
You.

01:29:33:06 - 01:29:42:03
Evan
If you were to start reading. yeah. Then, then this would be a it's a great audiobook too though, if you, if you're into that kind of stuff anyways, so would I.

01:29:42:03 - 01:29:43:01
Sleepezi
Would definitely check that out.

01:29:43:01 - 01:29:44:18
Evan
Yeah I know that there's a.

01:29:44:20 - 01:29:45:24
Sleepezi
Show coming up too for that.

01:29:45:24 - 01:30:16:25
Wade
So yeah, there are, there is this is such an interesting way of looking at it. so in religious studies, we, we oftentimes talk about there being a very close relationship between love and hate or reverence and fear. Right. And Sephiroth creating these nonstop, continuing infinite memories. has leaned more into it and even says this and rebirth, the confluence of emotions and the power of suffering.

01:30:16:25 - 01:30:57:29
Wade
And the planet feeds on these negative emotions, and they linger longer than what Earth is trying to do, which is spread this idea of peace and love, perhaps, and a positive memory and acceptance. and it's like you're you're the first person that's really been able to to help me think about this in this particular way. The reason why Sephiroth may want to summon meteor and want to create a worldwide catastrophe and suffering is because that makes him, in memorial, right his be beyond forgetting because he is the catalyst for all suffering for all time.

01:30:58:02 - 01:31:00:22
Wade
And so you go ahead.

01:31:00:25 - 01:31:38:09
Sleepezi
I was going to say is, is that this is what directly feeds into Advent Children's plot. Is, is that so? In on the way to a smile. This the mark of Seth Roth's suffering is called geo stigma. It is the disease that, people are infected with in life. But the idea of it is, is that once those souls die on, like their lives are over, is is that the sickness clings to their energy, their their life force, their spirit and in death is then used to feed Seth Roth's ultimate goal.

01:31:38:09 - 01:32:19:29
Sleepezi
So to your point is, is that as worlds also end, they are also being used in this way to feed the planet, his planet, his his world. In order to continue his essentially add on to his life span. So every death of a of a world is just continuously spinning him into this, you know, into this really interesting state of being, which is, so the way I've described it in the past to myself is, is that at first, Sephiroth is just the image of himself, and he that is his, his sort of source of strength is his own image.

01:32:20:01 - 01:32:51:05
Sleepezi
then it is, Cloud's suffering that becomes his his sort of source of life in, in remake and rebirth. It's so much bigger than that. Cloud is still his heart. The heart of, like, his self. but he is now in. He now is suffering incarnate. He he. It only exists if the world is somehow suffering. So it just has opened him up to become this force rather than just him.

01:32:51:07 - 01:33:05:29
Wade
This is again, this is just so perfect. I don't know how familiar you are with the the core tenets of Buddhism, but this is directly right into it. And, one of the things that I'm going to be talking about in a future video.

01:33:05:29 - 01:33:07:25
Evan
Essay, search for a video.

01:33:07:27 - 01:33:12:19
Wade
It may be out the same week as this conversation, but.

01:33:12:21 - 01:33:14:12
Evan
I can tell you all.

01:33:14:15 - 01:33:16:07
Sleepezi
Is Air Force Nine. Well.

01:33:16:09 - 01:33:40:14
Wade
There are four key, truths, about Buddhism. Noble truths. They're called in. The first one is that suffering exist. Okay, that's where everyone begins. And the reality is you look around the world, it's not hard to it's not a stretch of the imagination. You see suffering. It's internal, external all over the place. The second one is that suffering has a cause.

01:33:40:16 - 01:34:01:14
Wade
Okay. and it's usually the, the thirst or the attachment of an individual to the material world. The third piece is that or the third truth is that suffering can end. There can be an end to suffering. And the fourth is the kind of means and the pathway. How what's interesting to me in light of all of this, that was a brief little mini lecture on Buddhism.

01:34:01:14 - 01:34:24:27
Wade
But what's interesting to me about all of this is that Sephiroth wants to be the plain primary truth that people understand that he is that suffering, he's the cause of it, and the thing that everyone in the world knows. So if there's a cease to suffering, well, it's not for everybody. you have to take some extra steps for that.

01:34:25:02 - 01:34:53:04
Wade
He wants to be the default setting for people. And if that is the default setting for people in, you begin to believe that and not transcend into, hey, there's a way out of suffering and stuff like that. That's when this idea of God stigma perhaps kind of infects you, and you have so clearly been able to to show me how Sephiroth, begins to unmake reality for the purpose of his forever.

01:34:53:11 - 01:35:15:04
Wade
And that's what Aerith says, right? There's no such thing as forever. And he says, but there will be. And this is such an interesting, interesting piece that is, my mind is racing over that right now. Like, you have done a really, really great job in explaining that. Have you found that that's a difficult thing for people to comprehend?

01:35:15:04 - 01:35:19:07
Wade
This idea of what separates real goal is.

01:35:19:10 - 01:35:52:13
Sleepezi
I think, yes, only because the game is intentionally creating this sort of vacuum of, of thought. in terms of so at the end of the game, you might not like I don't think anybody really knows what's going on with like the reunion. Like, why does this need to be happening or how does this play into sort of why does it have to be in these moments where this happens for me like that seems clear?

01:35:52:13 - 01:36:13:26
Sleepezi
Is is that like, Zach, Zach's death happens around the end of of remake. It is in the vicinity of the singularity, which is a very key moment that shapes cloud in the same way that it's sort of, an instance in The Forgotten Capital. The reason why the reunion also seem to seemingly happens there is because of the suffering.

01:36:13:26 - 01:36:43:15
Sleepezi
But I don't think that, I do feel like what the developers have set out to accomplish with Sephiroth, it has, has been pretty effective. because I think everyone was like, why the hell is he showing up so much? Like, we need to stop that right now because he's not supposed to be here yet. But I think by the end of remake, I got this really interesting sense that he just started because at first he's just a memory.

01:36:43:15 - 01:37:11:28
Sleepezi
He's just a feeling. He's the feather that falls onto the ground and it's just the sense of him. But by the end of the game, everyone is seeing him and is immediately threatened by his presence. And it just he just seems to be slowly creeping into reality every time. And I think that as long as that feeling is there, you don't necessarily have to know, because even in the original game, to be quite honest, it is confusing.

01:37:11:28 - 01:37:35:21
Sleepezi
Like what is going on with him, how he's shown up. People didn't even realize like that. He's like missing half of his body in the northern crater, right? Things like that. but I think it, I think as long as you just get the sense of him, he they're doing their job correctly. to be then explained in some big, I don't know, exposition scene in part three, I don't know.

01:37:35:23 - 01:37:59:16
Evan
We hope you're. Well that's that's a question that I have about storytelling. Oh, wait. If this would be a good time. Yeah, go for it. I think that it seems to me that the way that you tell a story when the audience knows what's going to happen compared to when they don't, can change the things that you focus on, the way that you emphasize the direction isn't just about, oh, I wonder what's going to happen.

01:37:59:16 - 01:38:23:02
Evan
The conclusion is not the the end all, be all of the story. I think you find this in compelling, in well-done prequels where something has to come before and you know, the result. if I was going to reference Star Wars Crisis Core. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think it's for for me, it's like, Rogue One. If you haven't seen Rogue One, Rogue One ends at the end of at the beginning of.

01:38:23:02 - 01:38:23:29
Sleepezi
Episode one, the other one.

01:38:23:29 - 01:38:43:26
Evan
Begins, right? So you know what's going to happen. So how do we make a story that's interesting when we know where we're going to end up? Right. and you get a bit of this where they go back and forth with the Final Fantasy seven remake and rebirth, where there is some subversion of are they going to change the story?

01:38:43:29 - 01:39:11:20
Evan
Like, are they going to change some of the main beats? And there's a little bit of play with the tension there, but realistically it doesn't seem like many of us are questioning that they're going to change the story in these massive, major, fundamental ways. Like there's this curiosity that we have that they will but I think it has allowed them to provide a greater emphasis on some of the in-between moments and expand on some of these other characters that emphasize and reinforce some of the themes that the main story was telling.

01:39:11:26 - 01:39:28:02
Evan
I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your experience with some of the storytelling decisions that they made, some of the things that they emphasized, and some of the things that they decided to spend more time on, and some of the things that they decided to spend a little bit less time on, and how those kind of come together to where we could be headed.

01:39:28:09 - 01:39:32:05
Evan
The part three, you're very.

01:39:32:08 - 01:40:08:28
Sleepezi
right. it was something I was going to say earlier, but you really hit the nail on the head about how having this sort of revisiting of, of a story can it can affect the way that where our minds are going and our interpretations of of its retelling and in the case of remake and some other media, it is the primary focus of the developer is to be conscientious of the fact that we're coming back to this story, and we're actually reinventing it in a sense.

01:40:09:00 - 01:40:48:11
Sleepezi
I have been usually on the side of it being sequel, than it has been more of a remake. There's a there's a ton of information for me, as to why, but definitely at the base of that idea is Final Fantasy seven. It is still Final Fantasy seven. And I think the idea is to add clarity, unify, unify the story, from it's sort of, you know, sequels and prequels and sort of make it more streamlined.

01:40:48:11 - 01:41:35:19
Sleepezi
And I think sort of what Professor Noctis said like to properly see, like Crisis Core as a prequel, to properly see remake as sort of like what it is, and sort of like get a better sense of what makes Final Fantasy seven such an impactful story. And to just amplify those elements. So one of the things that I that has stuck with me ever since reading it is there's, the DVD extras of of Advent Children know Gemma starts talking about the end of of the movie and he's he says very specifically that Wall Cloud has sort of overcome Sephiroth again and sort of has started, has, defeated, sort of recognized his

01:41:35:19 - 01:42:04:28
Sleepezi
emotions that he needs to start dealing with, like these sort of tragic things is, is that this is just the beginning of Cloud's journey towards acceptance of himself and towards all of this, this loss and tragedy. and that stuck with me because going back to remake the thing that, cloud immediately has to start facing is Sephiroth, and not a Sephiroth that is present.

01:42:04:28 - 01:42:39:16
Sleepezi
Sephiroth, but, Sephiroth, who knows that this is a cloud that is probably going to, at the end of this story, be rid of him forever. So rather than Sephiroth only encompassing his past, and getting over his past, it's dealing with everything that has happened between then. All of the doubt, everything. So that's what makes it a sequel to me, is, is that we have we we are expanding on and furthering the discussion of Cloud's mental state.

01:42:39:16 - 01:43:14:01
Sleepezi
We are elaborating on the suffering. He is kind of finally going to be going through all of this. The real examples, like the tangible examples of this sort of sequel behavior, come in with the life stream sequence, from from rebirth. which to me is a perfect illustration of Sephiroth and on on the way to a smile, because one of the very first things that you notice about the scene is, is that this is Tifa in the live stream who's been abducted by a weapon.

01:43:14:01 - 01:43:50:28
Sleepezi
We can get into that later. Just a giant well, goes into the live stream and is sort of experiencing Cloud's perspective of these memories. It's not her perspective that she's seeing. She is living through Cloud's memories. But one of the other things that you see is that, Sephiroth is right there. The the manifestation of him in the live stream is around these memories of Nebo Haim, which we know are the memories that cloud has of Sephiroth.

01:43:51:00 - 01:44:34:04
Sleepezi
the core of him that is said to be, from on the way to a smile. So that is something that has not happened yet in the course of the story. But as we know, all of these, there's a line from developer quotes about memories of the future, that comes up, that is in reference to whispers, sort of er, its knowledge of future events from remake, sort of insinuating that in the life stream, all of these things have sort of happened already, have already been experienced, have already become a part of the planet in some way.

01:44:34:04 - 01:45:09:07
Sleepezi
So there's a ton of that in remake. But like for just Sephiroth alone to be a part of and sort of keeping, as you can see, if you go back and watch that scene is literally keeping the weapons from entering like certain sections of the life stream. Most likely to keep the truth. Also from from Tifa. there's all sorts of that evidence and it's and it's thrilling and it's super fun and it's what has kind of created the basis of conversation for so long as just to even to be able to have this conversation.

01:45:09:07 - 01:45:11:23
Sleepezi
So.

01:45:11:26 - 01:45:40:01
Wade
It is this idea of, Final Fantasy seven being this real cycle of life, death and rebirth. And the problem with it being a cycle is that it is a cycle of suffering and despair. In this trilogy, whether it's a sequel or a true remake or whatever, it appears to want to put an end to that cycle of suffering.

01:45:40:01 - 01:45:40:13
Sleepezi
Yeah.

01:45:40:15 - 01:46:03:24
Wade
And I think that that's a really interesting, theme and thesis here, because at the end of Advent Children, even there is that segment of I will never be in memory, I'll never I you I will always be. And what if this is the way of ending all of that once and for all? Do you think that Advent Children will be,

01:46:03:26 - 01:46:15:04
Wade
Oh, I it's not that it would be obsolete, but do you think that this will lead up to or just link up to in the way that we've talked to Advent Children.

01:46:15:07 - 01:46:25:12
Sleepezi
Do you think? I think it's it's over after this. and like I don't see any reason for it. I actually think that that's the whole point of this subversion.

01:46:25:12 - 01:46:26:02
Wade
Will in the.

01:46:26:02 - 01:46:56:00
Sleepezi
Future. Yeah. just because I think the idea is to undo the damage of what Sephiroth has caused in the future, I think that all of this is happening because of this, this thing. But to, I think, undo that and free us of, what Advent Children sort of led up to or the path to Advent Children is to end the entire thing is to have that resolution with cloud.

01:46:56:03 - 01:47:27:20
Sleepezi
There's no reason to go back to that story. There's no reason for cloud to to suffer over this anymore. I think, again, if you just watch all of the media in the form that it came out, it really illustrates a very clear pathway, from a beginning, middle to end. And it just feels like to go backwards is it's just because Advent Children is in the future is not mean that it is the sequel to to remake.

01:47:27:23 - 01:48:02:20
Sleepezi
if anything, it is just one part of the finale of of this, of this story. So I don't think that I think what will happen is we will get expansions on what future comes of remake, but not in the sense of Advent Children. I think that we will eventually get some other not a dirge of service, hopefully not a service for everybody, but, something, that sort of illustrates the effects of remake a little bit more.

01:48:02:22 - 01:48:03:10
Sleepezi
So,

01:48:03:12 - 01:48:29:00
Wade
In the interest of time, I've got two other topics that I want to kind of swing into really quick. You have done copious amounts of, research and talking about love. Loveless. What might you say to us briefly about ways that we can understand what's happening in Final Fantasy seven rebirth, but in all of it, through the depiction of love, loss in rebirth.

01:48:29:04 - 01:48:31:05
Evan
And what Loveless is.

01:48:31:07 - 01:48:37:09
Wade
Loveless is a play. Yes, it's a play within Final Fantasy seven universe.

01:48:37:12 - 01:48:39:10
Sleepezi
right. I think.

01:48:39:11 - 01:48:40:12
Evan
A lot of this is the play move.

01:48:40:12 - 01:48:44:19
Sleepezi
On.

01:48:44:21 - 01:49:08:04
Sleepezi
but the, I guess the best way to answer that is just to say that it is sort of the prequel of what is happening and rebirth to, to a certain extent, that a lot of the core elements of, of it that are brought up in crisis core are very, very relevant to the topic of destiny, very relevant to the topic of dreams, which is a very big part of crisis core.

01:49:08:04 - 01:49:36:20
Sleepezi
It's just a good, interesting roadmap. obviously in rebirth, there is definitely some expansion on the, the, the sort of lord that, the book that the play is based off of, sort of elaborates on such as, like, always Aerith dying, Aerith, I guess, is just always dying no matter what happens, in every timeline based off of, like, what the, the play says.

01:49:36:20 - 01:49:57:12
Sleepezi
So there are things still in there that I would really like somebody one day to go through with a fine tooth comb and kind of get into the nitty gritty details of it. but the goddess is also a big thing that is illustrated in Crisis Core, which very clearly comes up in temple of the ancients. Yeah. just a lot of good stuff.

01:49:57:15 - 01:50:01:17
Wade
How does that come up into from the ancients, just to be crystal clear for people.

01:50:01:17 - 01:50:41:14
Sleepezi
in the temple of the ancients, we have, the goddess descending from, like, meteor. It's suggested, or just, just showing up. Hanging out in Loveless. Yeah. Hanging out. Loveless depicts a goddess descending from the sky. And there seems to be two different variations of that same concept. so the whole thing that I've also just been trying to get through in my own like mind is trying to wrap my head around, is this just meant to depict to Nova's, arrival, which we know did come down from some sort of, like, body in space?

01:50:41:16 - 01:51:15:09
Sleepezi
And then is there truth to the goddess tale that doesn't connect maybe directly to Jenova? that one suggests sort of a positive direction for the world. And the other one, the other interpretation is destruction, which is, the way that Crisis Corps illustrates it is salvation or destruction is sort of how these things are interpreted. which is very clearly illustrated in white and black whisperers in this new variation.

01:51:15:09 - 01:51:47:23
Sleepezi
So to further so crisis Corps only illustrated one goddess, but two outcomes. And rebirth is now establishing that there are two goddesses. And also this shows up in the card game. Queen's blood is also being something that shows up. it's just a very interesting sort of look. And also just for the sake of it's an interesting way to sort of see how, things are expanded upon from other titles like the compilation.

01:51:47:25 - 01:52:07:08
Sleepezi
So clearly there are are notes that have been taken and some really just a lot of time and care to all of these elements kind of making their way into affecting, and, influencing the direction of, of the new Read trilogy. So it's very cool.

01:52:07:10 - 01:52:37:02
Wade
It is really cool. And I think that Loveless moves from being just a simple, kind of side mission, sort of fun sort of thing into something that helps us think deeply about the world, its worldbuilding. And it also teases out some of the core themes of the entire game. And so, for everybody listening, go back and replay Loveless thinking in terms of what is this larger implication, especially in light of crisis core and stuff like that?

01:52:37:05 - 01:52:53:23
Wade
I have one final topic that I want to bring up just for a few minutes. and we've already talked about the live stream sequence in rebirth. I'm curious about what you hope for in the live stream sequence in part three.

01:52:53:25 - 01:53:38:04
Sleepezi
So this says a lot. It is, I think this is also one of the reasons why, I very much enjoyed the delay of Eric's burial scene. I think that that's just ultimately we're just getting all of the emotional punches pulled, at the end, with, with that sequence in particular. So, in the live stream sequence, we do see very clearly illustrated from the original game that, it is sort of a coming together moment for, for Cloud's sort of psyche, sort of, stitching together, so to speak.

01:53:38:06 - 01:53:58:17
Sleepezi
but in the same vein, there's been a lot of expansion on just the concept of what the live stream is, characters that are involved in that. and then also from rebirths perspective, new things that cloud needs to realize in order to sort of fully come into himself to to feel okay and to deal with some issues.

01:53:58:19 - 01:54:36:17
Sleepezi
So, overall, I would just really like to see the Aerith sequence there, all of it in the way that I think the players remember it. I think that that would really highlight a lot of interest, and a lot of goodwill. I think it would generate. and then on top of that, just knowing that Sephiroth is also present in these moments, very in a very real and tangible way in these memories, I think, is going to be a very interesting way of depicting that sequence.

01:54:36:17 - 01:54:57:07
Sleepezi
It's going to be all the trimmings of of remake and all of the best parts of it. And the worst parts of it are for sure where people are going to be in there. I personally am just only looking forward to it in like the most ecstatic way. it's really, really interesting. I don't know, is there anything in particular that you're looking for in that?

01:54:57:07 - 01:54:58:16
Wade
Oh man.

01:54:58:18 - 01:55:01:12
Sleepezi
Ooh ooh, no reverse card.

01:55:01:16 - 01:55:09:07
Evan
It seems to be a river nun named card game for copyright reasons. Reverse card.

01:55:09:09 - 01:55:43:04
Wade
You know, I, I think my, my biggest hope is that whatever they do is that they really stick the landing. I think that they've created such ambiguity that they need to make good on it in part three. And so I think that even if they don't fully explain what the whispers are, I think that we need to have some level of understanding and reasoning for why this has been the way they were wanting to tell this story, and maybe that comes in the live stream sequence.

01:55:43:04 - 01:56:21:22
Wade
Maybe it comes in the the final act, I don't know, but that would be my biggest hope. Now as far as like a fan service thing and this is where people would be really divided. I want Tifa to continue to be his guide. Cloud's guide, to his rehabilitation. Right. But it also makes perfect sense for me that she is a tour guide, alongside meeting up with Zach again and Aerith and his mother and, and others that have been lost.

01:56:21:22 - 01:56:49:19
Wade
I would like to see not just a recollection of his memories, but all of the memories that have made him, not just the specific ones. I want to see him accept and embrace to degree the suffering that has has been done all throughout his life and all the things that have been repressed. And I think that that's what I would hope for.

01:56:49:22 - 01:57:08:14
Wade
I also feel like that could be an amazing moment of closure for so many different threads. And so maybe that's what I'm hoping for. So for her to be a part of that and to witness it, I think that Tifa seeing Aerith again is a beautiful moment, so I don't know, it could be cool.

01:57:08:16 - 01:57:39:27
Sleepezi
I think you just touched on something I never would have even thought of, but I think now, thematically too, it makes just so much sense for him to have some resolution to his mother's death in that sequence. Yeah, that at the top of the list for me now specifically. And also, I think it would be a very, true to form to soften the blow of Aerith showing up, even though I also agree with you that she and Zack definitely have a part in that.

01:57:39:29 - 01:58:06:02
Sleepezi
There's just so much story in that sequence to tell in just naming one of those characters. Yeah, that would be so cathartic. But I think wrapping it up with his mother and really dealing with that, and then also like because his treatment of her in the, in the game so far has not been indifferent, but there's still that sort of like, kid like behavior.

01:58:06:02 - 01:58:29:26
Sleepezi
It would be a real echo of his growth and him coming to terms with the conclusion of his, like that childhood trauma. Yeah. just having a goodbye and sort of like an I'm okay thing and that she's, like, happy for him and like, he is sort of stepping into where he really needs to be would be enough.

01:58:29:26 - 01:58:52:29
Sleepezi
And from an adult's perspective, as opposed to a child playing that game would really clearly illustrate. It's like because we've grown up and because we we would understand what that means, more, more intently, I think then maybe as children, that in itself could just give so much power to reason for a remake like, well.

01:58:52:29 - 01:59:21:20
Wade
It could, and it grounds two phrases from cloud. one at the end of the game. the original game, when he says, we've come to show you our memories. And then the second grounding is when he says, in Advent Children, there's not a thing I don't cherish. And I think that coming to that place of acceptance for everything that has made him and broken him and remade him, him, that's the message of acceptance that I think part three can stick.

01:59:21:22 - 01:59:26:03
Wade
So that's what I hope for some nice.

01:59:26:06 - 01:59:27:17
Sleepezi
I love.

01:59:27:19 - 01:59:41:21
Wade
Sleep easy. This has been an amazing conversation. you have made my mind race in a million different, directions and I am cute. Thank you. We could have kept going for like 2 or 3 more hours, but that's why we'll have you on again. You know.

01:59:41:23 - 01:59:42:04
Evan
What?

01:59:42:08 - 01:59:44:00
Sleepezi
I'll be happy to do it.

01:59:44:02 - 01:59:45:22
Evan
Yes, yes, yes.

01:59:45:25 - 01:59:50:20
Wade
People can find you and find your time, content. What, what do we have to look for?

01:59:50:20 - 01:59:52:25
Evan
Yeah. What's next?

01:59:52:27 - 02:00:14:17
Sleepezi
a rebirth video. At some point, we're we're shooting for another not five hour reverse, video coming down the chain full of all of the things that you would expect from, from a sleep easy video with no certain time frame to the release of that. I'm hoping to do it. First video that I ever made came out two months after the game came out.

02:00:14:17 - 02:00:22:18
Sleepezi
This one's looking like it's probably going to be at the end of this year. Maybe something to celebrate with. okay. Something for the TGA or something like that.

02:00:22:18 - 02:00:29:21
Wade
So it'd be awesome at the end. We can find you over on YouTube. just at sleep easy, right?

02:00:29:23 - 02:00:37:16
Sleepezi
Yes. Sleep easy on Twitter. Sleep easy on Twitch. Sleep easy on YouTube. Anywhere else. Sleep easy.

02:00:37:18 - 02:00:58:14
Wade
Okay. Well, everybody make sure you check out all of sleep easy is easy is content. It is good listening. podcast sort of stuff. While I always do it while I'm doing laundry. Like, I'm just watching you and building clothes, I'm like, oh my gosh, I never thought about that. And it's amazing. So that's my suggestion. Cannot thank you enough.

02:00:58:14 - 02:01:06:03
Wade
Everybody go give him a sub. Go, follow him on socials. And, until next time, walk. Tell my friends we'll see you in class.

02:01:06:06 - 02:01:07:18
Evan
Bye, everyone.

02:01:07:21 - 02:01:08:01
Sleepezi
I.

02:01:35:04 - 02:01:51:12
Evan
Big thanks to Husky By the Geek for the amazing interview. Thanks for sharing your time and your thoughts with us. Big thanks to Husky by the Geek for our theme song. We really love it and been enjoying it. And thanks to Nick Smith who does our graphics. But most of all, you guys know what it is. Thanks to viewers like you.

02:01:51:13 - 02:01:58:01
Evan
This doesn't happen without you, so we hope you're doing well. Hope your weeks off to a great start. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode. Bye bye.