The ProfNoctis Weekly Show

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:17:23
Intro
Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Prophylaxis weekly show. I'm Evan and I'm Wade. And today's episode, we're going to be talking about why we play the games we play, why I'm concerned about the Final Fantasy franchise. And we'll be continuing with part two of our character creator. With that, let's mosey.

00:00:23:00 - 00:00:47:00
Wade
I have concerns

Evan
About me?

Wade
And we'll talk about those later. But no, not concerns about you. I have I've got concerns about the future of my favorite franchise, the Final Fantasy franchise. And the I know, I know, I don't, because, I mean, for me, it's a ten out of ten and 11 out of ten. Even every game I play from that series is a banger.

00:00:47:00 - 00:01:10:18
Wade
And it's been that way since 1992, when I played the very first Final Fantasy in my life. Final fantasy four, slash two in America. Because I'm too dumb to get the ones in between there. But regardless, I am concerned because there are trends in gaming. And so what I'd like to do now is to go into a segment where we are talking about the psychology of gaming, why we play the games that we play.

00:01:10:19 - 00:01:33:29
Wade
Now, I understand that not everybody listening to this or watching this is going to be a fan of Final Fantasy. But here's what I'd like to say to you. Listen to our slash viewer. My games may be today, but yours may be tomorrow. And so there's a reason for you to care. If you say and do nothing today, I will not be there to be able to speak for you tomorrow.

00:01:34:01 - 00:02:04:14
Wade
So that's where we are, everybody. so the purpose of this segment is we want to examine motivations and understand them, and then to model conversations around these motivations, because ultimately we want to help our viewers, our audience and ourselves. We want to we want to learn how to have conversations about the things that we're passionate about, excited about, with people that we care about.

00:02:04:16 - 00:02:33:25
Wade
this is something that I'll dive into in a little bit, but I have to do this every semester. Talking to college freshmen and sophomores. sometimes a senior, but usually younger college students who are taking my Final Fantasy 15 class. And they always say, don't do linger. I don't like Final Fantasy, I don't know, Final Fantasy. And I have to explain what is Final Fantasy and why it's something that they should or could care about, even if it has no immediate bearing on their life.

00:02:33:26 - 00:02:35:18
Wade
So that's kind of the goal of the segment.

00:02:35:19 - 00:02:56:01
Evan
Okay. So we're going to yeah. Based on your alarm, about the failure of your favorite franchise. We're going to try and understand why we like the things that we like a little bit more. And how to develop simple, common language to be able to invite others into those passions without them having to play 300 hours of a game to really.

00:02:56:05 - 00:02:57:07
Wade
Absolutely of.

00:02:57:08 - 00:03:08:24
Evan
It. I love it. I love it. Okay, great. Tell me what it was that sparked this concern. It seems like you were scrolling Twitter again, which you know, which is yeah.

00:03:08:26 - 00:03:36:20
Wade
It never goes well when you just doom scroll. which is all I tend to do on Twitter. Learn X, so we learn scroll. That's true. I I've found some good learn scroll accounts. Okay. recently. But on May 23rd, Jacob Novak, I think I'm pronouncing that right. a former, he formerly reported to, two CEOs of Square Enix for the better part of the decade.

00:03:36:23 - 00:03:59:17
Wade
He. Yes. thank you. He ran a subsidiary. he is into Square Enix Holdings, all kinds of stuff. So this guy knows what he's talking about. He knows this is not just some throwaway opinion. Because, you know, if we're out there doing our own research, we understand that not every source is equally credible. This is a credible source.

00:03:59:20 - 00:04:30:08
Wade
And so I'm reading through his, I think he's got like 20 or 30 tweets in this thread. Pretty immaculate. I mean, like we're talking amazing stuff. He goes in trying to explain some of the alarm or some of the concern around some of the news statements that said that Final Fantasy 16 and Final Fantasy seven rebirth failed to meet sales expectations.

00:04:30:11 - 00:05:06:18
Wade
Okay, set by Square Enix. And so for me, knowing that Final Fantasy 16 and seven rebirth were both bangers, triple A titles. rebirth is set to be, one of the nominees for game of the year this year. It's concerning that games of this caliber are not meeting their sales expectations. And so the question for for a lot of us is like, is that from the CEO's side of things to the business thing, are they are they overestimating what their profits should be, or is there actually a systemic problem here with the gaming landscape?

00:05:06:18 - 00:05:16:15
Wade
And he goes on to say that, yeah, they're there's a shifting landscape and we should be expecting some changes in the future.

00:05:16:17 - 00:05:18:15
Evan
How does he describe it?

00:05:18:17 - 00:05:49:20
Wade
So he describes it as this almost, competition and dichotomy of two different kinds of games, which you would have the traditional triple A, one and done title. these are the games like Final Fantasy is games like The Last of Us, uncharted. It's the games that you sit down and you play, one time, a $70 ish experience that for 60 to 100 hours, you have one cohesive experience with an ending.

00:05:49:23 - 00:05:56:10
Evan
Now, games like, Call of Duty and Battlefield and that kind of stuff, they're also Triple-A games. They just have a multiplayer component.

00:05:56:10 - 00:06:19:20
Wade
That they have a multiplayer component that's going to extend their shelf life. And in fact, you see Call of Duty moving to, this model of multiplayer called Warzone. It, goes, across multiple iterations of the franchise. So you have Black Ops six coming out later this year. It continues the Warzone, multiplayer, market.

00:06:19:23 - 00:06:34:00
Evan
I guess this side, I saw that the install file for Black Ops six, 300 and hundred gigs, which, PlayStation comes with, what, 500 out of the box, it's like.

00:06:34:00 - 00:06:51:20
Wade
And even not only that, did you read this? You have to be connected to the internet because some of the rendering of graphics is still being streamed beyond that 300 gigs. Yeah, I've read that.

00:06:51:20 - 00:06:54:08
Evan
The future is here and I don't know if I understand.

00:06:54:08 - 00:07:08:06
Wade
I'm not sure if I like it or not, but if that is the streaming future, then we can look at less powerful systems like say, the switch for sure, and they can stream up graphics. Did you? That's just a possible side. Did you ever play.

00:07:08:06 - 00:07:16:09
Evan
Any of the streaming betas like Google did? One where you could play Assassin's Creed in just a browser window, and it ran like a solid?

00:07:16:11 - 00:07:20:20
Wade
That's how I do Game Pass. That's how I do some of Game Pass, actually.

00:07:20:20 - 00:07:21:09
Evan
Just stream it all.

00:07:21:13 - 00:07:47:22
Wade
So just stream it. Yeah, that's how I did some of the halos. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, back back to this. So age versus an important aside. So it's this triple AA versus things like it I would include Call of Duty to a degree in this. But also games like Minecraft and Roblox and Fortnite. It's these ongoing games as service and include persistent revenue model.

00:07:47:22 - 00:08:19:07
Wade
That's exactly right. And and these games are just like gangbusters for the, for the, companies that make them. Yeah. And so the question is, why would you invest in some of these triple A one and done $60 and done experiences when you could have these ongoing things that are making so, so much more money? I want to read a couple of tweets that, that Jacob put out that I think are just really, really interesting.

00:08:19:07 - 00:08:43:17
Wade
He says total audience growth was a reasonable expectation in the 2015 2022 era, and is still is today. Not only had the industry grown significantly each year, but each day, that new generation, the idea that new generations were coming of age, they were coming of age as gamers, meaning that your total addressable population should be increasing and you should be increasing your revenue.

00:08:43:17 - 00:09:17:20
Wade
So what happened not just to Square Enix, but to the industry as a whole audience. Behavioral patterns are drastically different than expected in 2015. Remember I said 2015 was pre Fortnite? The way it used to work was you would pick a release date. Sorry, you would pick a release date similar to a Hollywood movie. Stick to it and consider the competition to be the title's release in the weeks before and after, we would look at Hitman and Days X release and consider whether there was a Call of Duty or Assassin's Creed coming out.

00:09:17:20 - 00:09:36:20
Wade
At the same time, assuming that gamers had X amount of money to spend and Y amount of time and, that if we wanted to get full sticker price, we would avoid those sort of weekends. So he goes on to say that at that time, as a gamer, once you finished the most recent game you were on, you moved on to the next.

00:09:36:23 - 00:10:05:03
Wade
Well, that all changed when people stopped moving to the next game. They stayed in Fortnite and just waited for the next season and paid for the next season, or paid for the next drop, or whatever it is. and because of that, the game industry, while still growing and revenue increasing, is increasingly captured by fewer live service games that are generating a level of stickiness seen in social media companies.

00:10:05:03 - 00:10:23:01
Wade
Okay. And so he kind of makes this, comparison. There. But the idea is, again, that that presenting question, why would you chase after the single player one and done experiences when these are paying the bills.

00:10:23:05 - 00:10:37:09
Evan
Yes. You know, concern is that the market is shifting in a way that it's not going to be advantageous to develop the kind of games that you love anymore. And so you're worried that they're going to make fewer of them and eventually maybe even stop making them.

00:10:37:09 - 00:11:08:01
Wade
To be perfectly transparent. This is a very selfish concern as you're okay, this is a I know I'm I'm allowed to. But like, for me personally, like the kind of games that I love, I it makes me wonder about them. Now I, you know, we just came off of Summer Game Fest and the incredible Xbox showcase, all of these, a lot of the games that were revealed in these two things really do excite me, because they are the kind of games that I have some.

00:11:08:01 - 00:11:17:16
Wade
Maybe this fear is unfounded, but the the revenue model, the income profitability of of these games, it is concerning for me.

00:11:17:18 - 00:11:19:13
Evan
They are business. They're not a charity.

00:11:19:13 - 00:11:20:12
Wade
Right? Yeah.

00:11:20:14 - 00:11:39:14
Evan
Games help us do a lot of things. But when we were talking about this segment where we're talking about the psychology of why we choose the games that we do, that directly goes to market and our goal is to try and understand why we play the games that we do, why we like what we like, and then help us to understand that in a way that we can then discuss it.

00:11:39:14 - 00:12:01:05
Evan
So I think it's very fitting, and I think you're right to be concerned at market trends with big Triple-A games, because they're also going up in price. I mean, you're talking 60, 70, 80, $90 for these games. The budgets are massive. So when you come at something with such a big budget, the revenue that you have to earn to recoup those costs is just massive.

00:12:01:05 - 00:12:24:05
Evan
And these smaller games spend a lot more money on marketing, right? Because they don't have the same time spent in development, they don't have the same expenses. And teams that have to work on them necessarily. And so they scale a little differently when it comes to their budget. And I think that movie comparison, which is fitting given the way that these Hollywood studios with streaming are struggling with like also grappling.

00:12:24:05 - 00:12:47:28
Evan
Yeah, the movie theaters, it does seem like a parallel problem where they seem to be kind of caught in this whole thing. So why do you think that we choose these games? You mentioned some age demographics that the younger generation is playing more persistent, like games like Fortnite that have like a battle pass in its kind of games as a service and ongoing.

00:12:48:01 - 00:13:03:11
Evan
We're not playing through like a story. and so I'm sure that there are some generational shifts there. But as for concept, why did you get interested in Final Fantasy as a child? What was it that drew you to it? First?

00:13:03:13 - 00:13:30:23
Wade
Well, it was the stories. these were characters that I fell in love with. immediately I was drawn to the stories. Now I've always been a big story guy, even from when I first started reading. you know, I always choose fiction over nonfiction, which is interesting as a as a instructor, as a teacher. But I love action, I love worlds, I love well designed characters.

00:13:30:26 - 00:13:54:11
Wade
Final fantasy did that for me. and so that's why I hopped into that. and it's also one of the struggles that I have with games that have no characterization or, or a narrative or a story is, it's just not there, or it's not compelling or fleshed out. I just don't I don't play a game for gameplay.

00:13:54:13 - 00:13:55:06
Evan
Yeah, I.

00:13:55:13 - 00:13:58:13
Wade
Sometimes play a game in spite of gameplay.

00:13:58:15 - 00:14:24:03
Evan
Yeah, well, understanding why you like what you like is challenging. I and I think about why I first got into games I enjoyed play and games, but I'm like really social with those things. So I like to play things that involve other people. So I love multiplayer stuff, but even when I play single player stuff, I can't not talk about it, with people.

00:14:24:03 - 00:14:47:26
Evan
So like, I'm playing through God of War. Finally. Ragnarok is incredible, but I like, give a recap to my wife about what I've been doing because I want her to be included in it, because that's just kind of her answer. I like talking about games and playing games, or watching people play games just about as much as I enjoy playing and or sometimes more, depending on like what the type of game is.

00:14:47:29 - 00:14:53:02
Evan
And it's taken me a while to like, understand that motivation even a little bit.

00:14:53:04 - 00:15:22:05
Wade
Well, this is a fundamental difference between you and me. I've discovered just in the years that we've known each other. you play games, for social? certainly. But also you enjoy the actual gameplay of games. Yeah. I, I don't know that I do, like, I love a good gameplay system and I will enjoy playing that, but gameplay loops do nothing for me.

00:15:22:05 - 00:15:23:12
Evan
It's so interesting.

00:15:23:14 - 00:15:31:17
Wade
It does nothing for me. Like I don't care about the gameplay loop except get me to the next story sequence.

00:15:31:20 - 00:15:32:09
Evan
Yeah. So yeah.

00:15:32:14 - 00:15:35:29
Wade
It's just interesting to note that difference between us.

00:15:36:07 - 00:15:51:18
Evan
Yeah, I, I one of my favorite types of games, one of my favorite games probably of all time is FTL, which is faster than light. Where you it's just a roguelike where you have a ship and you go through and it tells this randomly generated story, and then you either beat it or you die and you start completely over.

00:15:51:19 - 00:16:03:17
Evan
There is no narrative outside of that which is created in the in the game. And I yeah, love I think it's engaging. I love managing the little ship and I love playing it on loops. How do you think that.

00:16:03:17 - 00:16:04:20
Wade
We.

00:16:04:23 - 00:16:19:11
Evan
Stay involved in the things that we enjoy? Like what kept you engaged with Final Fantasy throughout the years too? Because I think it's different than what first attracts us to it. I think it has to be something that keeps us interested too.

00:16:19:14 - 00:16:43:14
Wade
Well, I think that the the thing about Final Fantasy is that they've prided themselves on being the standard bearer of immersion. And so I knew that I was going to get the most cutting edge storytelling available in video games. Okay. and that was through Final Fantasy or excuse me, the regular Nintendo Final Fantasy is moving into Super Nintendo.

00:16:43:18 - 00:17:03:17
Wade
When they made that leap over to the PlayStation, PS2, PS3, and then into the modern era, it's just been like, oh my gosh. They do set the standard voice acting, music, all that stuff. And so for me, it's telling the stories in greater ways. that that's what kept me in Final Fantasy.

00:17:03:19 - 00:17:09:24
Evan
Do you think there's more competition in that sector now than there was 100%? Because they they kind of created the market in a lot of ways.

00:17:09:26 - 00:17:39:04
Wade
they didn't create it. Dragon Quest or Dragon Warrior back in the day were, were were also really heavy in that, the market, they, they really did, they made it more mainstream. I would say, I'm not going to say that they exclusively did it because they wouldn't be who they were without the Dragon Quest series, without Ultima, and things like that.

00:17:39:04 - 00:18:02:24
Wade
But they definitely made it mainstream and especially with Final Fantasy seven, I don't a lot of people think that that game is is overhyped in overrated, but the the impact that it had on the narrative game genre, can never be understated.

00:18:03:01 - 00:18:07:14
Evan
Well, let's talk for just a second about how devs are a product of their time, right? That's.

00:18:07:16 - 00:18:08:14
Wade
Yeah, G.

00:18:08:20 - 00:18:32:26
Evan
Cannot be ignored. like the differences in graphics that happen and the progress that we've made. I think it's really easy to go back and be a little bit revisionist about the impact or how good a game or. Yeah, but it's just like you, you, it's you have to be careful not to apply a modern ethic to a historical context when we're in evaluating, like, stories and media good praise.

00:18:32:29 - 00:18:45:00
Evan
Yeah. And so I think that we have to kind of do the same thing when we're looking at games, because as you get past it, I mean, it's been I mean, how many years been almost to it'll be 30 years.

00:18:45:00 - 00:18:45:24
Wade
30. Yeah.

00:18:45:26 - 00:18:59:01
Evan
You know, in just a few years that that game's been out and like everything, it's just it's a product of its time in addition to other things. So I think we have to be a little bit fair in our understanding and questioning.

00:18:59:03 - 00:19:27:08
Wade
I think so too. And but to your point, the competition is a lot higher today. There are a lot more options when it comes to these triple A story narrative, immersive experiences. And even though many of these experiences can point back to, so many developers saying Final Fantasy seven, Final Fantasy, you know, for. Yeah, or whatever was was their start in love for gaming.

00:19:27:10 - 00:19:50:20
Wade
You see how they have developed, and even in some ways surpassed the storytelling of the Final Fantasy series. I think of, The Last of Us, uncharted. These are these are amazing story games from Naughty Dog, and it's obvious to me at least, that they have taken some of the spirit of that Final Fantasy seven stuff and really evolved it for a modern audience.

00:19:50:22 - 00:20:15:25
Wade
in a way that I think that Square Enix has had to, up their game a little bit more. yeah. And so the question then to, to this whole thing is, what is the psyche of these middle schoolers and this younger generation, right, that is not gravitating toward these stories and narrative games the way that my generation did.

00:20:15:27 - 00:20:23:04
Wade
And I think that's an interesting, and compelling question, one that I deal with with freshman every year.

00:20:23:08 - 00:20:47:07
Evan
Well, if we talk about the base needs, I think there's a quote, that we pulled from a New York Times article. Sam Van Aaron pronunciation. Forgive me, please. that was published in June of 2020. that kind of goes to the nature of this. He says games occupy a strange place in our cultural consciousness. Everyone has played a game at some point in their lives.

00:20:47:10 - 00:21:12:06
Evan
Despite that ubiquity, games are rarely discussed with the same reverence as other media like films or books. For most, games are like chocolate, guilty pleasure consumed secretly, the game designer Sid Meyer once remarked that, quote, A game is a series of interesting choices. Quote. Navigating these choices shapes the course of play, revealing who we are and how we think.

00:21:12:12 - 00:21:18:26
Evan
Playing a game is an act of exposition.

00:21:18:28 - 00:21:46:22
Evan
So when we think about motivations, right, I think why we play the story games is one of the things is that a little bit of escape? But I, I wonder how you would differentiate what our needs are that we approach video games with, like what needs in our lives are games filling here?

00:21:46:24 - 00:22:15:10
Wade
And I think that that's going to depend on the the gamer themselves. I would. Oh man. I might push back a little bit on that quote where it says that for most games are like chocolate. I think there's a perception games are like chocolate, a guilty pleasure consumed secretly. But when you're talking to somebody that that is serious about the games that they play, it's a bit more than a one and done kind of experience is something that stays with you.

00:22:15:10 - 00:22:25:04
Wade
And this, you know, as we've talked about before, it goes into my research, right? You play a game, you integrate it into your memory. And, just.

00:22:25:04 - 00:22:29:10
Evan
A little bit of context. This is about play in general, not just video games. So.

00:22:29:10 - 00:22:31:23
Wade
Oh, okay. That's really helpful. Crossword puzzles.

00:22:31:23 - 00:22:34:10
Evan
It's talking about like Wordle.

00:22:34:10 - 00:22:35:14
Wade
Interesting. Okay.

00:22:35:14 - 00:22:41:29
Evan
These other things. So it's just like we don't games like the games that you play don't rise to a level of mainstream social.

00:22:42:05 - 00:22:44:21
Wade
Okay.

00:22:44:23 - 00:22:47:07
Evan
so I'll look up a few stats where you kind of keep talking. No.

00:22:47:07 - 00:22:55:19
Wade
That's great. and that's a really good clarification because there are games that don't demand and that same level

00:22:55:19 - 00:23:02:12
Wade
of first person interaction and stuff. You know, Wordle is fundamentally different

00:23:02:18 - 00:23:17:21
Evan
So I guess a question in what? Like what needs do games fill in our lives? I have some demographic, information based on, like, ages of people and what percentage play video games whenever you're ready. about it as well.

00:23:17:23 - 00:23:41:11
Wade
Yeah, I think it depends on the person. Right. you know, the person that's playing a game like Wordle is going to be having a different response in a lot of ways than somebody that is playing one of these narrative games, which is different than somebody playing Fortnite. and so what what is it that somebody is getting from these things?

00:23:41:13 - 00:23:44:17
Wade
so what do you have these categories and demographics?

00:23:44:20 - 00:24:03:04
Evan
Well, so, in a report, they said that 65 of Americans play video games. Only 65% of Americans play video games. 26% of those, are.

00:24:03:07 - 00:24:05:23
Wade
65% of Americans play video games.

00:24:05:23 - 00:24:08:21
Evan
Yeah, 212 million players per week.

00:24:08:23 - 00:24:17:14
Wade
That's, a higher percentage than I thought. I mean, I guess I grew up during the days of, like, it being so niche.

00:24:17:19 - 00:24:21:27
Evan
Well, when you expand the categories to include mobile games, which,

00:24:21:29 - 00:24:22:09
Wade
Which is.

00:24:22:09 - 00:24:24:03
Evan
Exactly what we're talking about is.

00:24:24:03 - 00:24:24:24
Wade
That's true.

00:24:24:24 - 00:24:27:16
Evan
That's like mobile gaming or games as a service.

00:24:27:17 - 00:24:28:00
Wade
Yeah.

00:24:28:00 - 00:24:42:20
Evan
That's true. Like, like a full story triple A game, right? Yeah, yeah. That is you look at the trends that are happening. They make so much money. God that you like. Yeah. I mean, like Farmville, candy crush like Farmville.

00:24:42:20 - 00:24:43:09
Wade
Oh my God.

00:24:43:10 - 00:24:46:24
Evan
Because you buy these gems and then it does it. So it's you've got people who are now got to.

00:24:46:24 - 00:24:48:05
Wade
Go check on my radishes.

00:24:48:06 - 00:24:52:00
Evan
Right. They're never going to pick up a controller or probably not going to convert.

00:24:52:00 - 00:24:52:13
Wade
Yeah.

00:24:52:13 - 00:25:14:06
Evan
Into like, like a more story based long form Triple-A game experience. But they're making up like a significant majority of video game revenue. So when you combine that with the overproduction of how much gaming was going to grow in the pandemic because they, they just thought that that gravy train was going to continue forever, it seems.

00:25:14:06 - 00:25:35:08
Evan
And it's like, well, no, everybody's trapped inside. So there's people who are turning to video games and play and there's different media forms that they wouldn't normally. And so when they didn't stay and play at the same rate, when kind of everything opened back up, I think they created some of these big shifts and these freak out moments that were happening for these companies that thought they had it all planned out.

00:25:35:11 - 00:25:55:27
Wade
yeah. No, that's that's great. And I do wonder, you know, in ten years, when we look back at the pandemic and the impact that it had on the industry, you know, what what is that landscape going to look like pre and post pandemic and Covid? I it's interesting to think about.

00:25:56:00 - 00:26:11:05
Evan
Do you think actively about why you're playing a game when you play it, or do you just go by, feel like when you're not feeling it, you don't play the game when you are, you do or do you like think I want an escapist game? So I'm going to do a game that I'm like, I'm escape like that.

00:26:11:10 - 00:26:15:15
Evan
That psychological process feels much more subconscious than it is overt.

00:26:15:20 - 00:26:20:29
Wade
The best games. You never wonder why you're playing them.

00:26:21:01 - 00:26:23:28
Evan
Okay, I'm going to okay, the best games.

00:26:23:28 - 00:26:48:16
Wade
The best games. You're never going to wonder because it just invites you to to enjoy them. Right? I am currently playing Borders gate three. Okay. And like I, it's just constantly on my mind. This is a question that I continue to ask myself. caveat. Okay, a brief disclaimer. This is a very well-made game.

00:26:48:22 - 00:27:15:00
Wade
It is a ten out of ten for a lot of people. It is fundamentally not my kind of game. Okay. And and the reason why it's not is because of the DNA esthetics, the dice rolls, the, this particular type of turn based battle, I like turn based battle systems, or so I thought. But this one I really, really just it's not my thing.

00:27:15:03 - 00:27:15:26
Wade
The movement.

00:27:15:26 - 00:27:25:08
Evan
Digital tabletop. Yeah. Like it. Yeah I at its core, it is a Dungeons and Dragons story. Yeah. That you just live out in video game format.

00:27:25:08 - 00:27:33:22
Wade
And it's not me at all. It's the same reason. Oh gosh, this is a crazy comparison. Maybe. Maybe I can better explain.

00:27:33:23 - 00:27:34:18
Evan
I can stick the landing.

00:27:34:18 - 00:27:53:27
Wade
I believe it's the reason why I play soccer and not football. Football is turn based and soccer is action. Okay like that. That's it. Okay. And it's like I just I'm like, I just want to move. I just want to move. Like, don't don't give me these constraints. Yeah. I don't want to wait and stuff.

00:27:53:27 - 00:27:56:05
Evan
So that is true.

00:27:56:08 - 00:28:17:12
Wade
That is not to say anything about borders gate three other than it's not my kind of game. And yet I am playing it and I am enjoying a lot of it. But I do have to ask my question in the second or third 60 minute battle of my day, because I'm really bad at the game too. Why am I playing this game?

00:28:17:12 - 00:28:28:23
Wade
And so the answer is, I like the characters. I'm enjoying the story enough to overcome the parts of this game that I do not like.

00:28:28:23 - 00:28:32:03
Evan
And you're playing with a friend, with.

00:28:32:03 - 00:28:47:20
Wade
A friend, couch co-op, not online because I can drop an online game if I don't like it, but a couch co-op game? There's more accountability, I guess. Yeah, and there's that. Like, we're like looking at each other and laughing and like, oh my gosh, this is silly.

00:28:47:20 - 00:29:00:19
Evan
But social aspect. Okay, here's five like examples of okay, like needs or motivations that we could like explored video games. One is yeah for challenge and achievement.

00:29:00:21 - 00:29:02:23
Wade
Yeah.

00:29:02:25 - 00:29:10:24
Evan
One is the need for escapism and immersion. One is a need for relaxation and stress relief.

00:29:10:26 - 00:29:12:07
Wade
Okay.

00:29:12:09 - 00:29:15:22
Evan
One is the need for problem solving and creativity.

00:29:16:24 - 00:29:22:28
Evan
And the other would be for the need for emotional resonance. Right. You want to see a story.

00:29:22:28 - 00:29:23:06
Wade
Yeah.

00:29:23:08 - 00:29:25:07
Evan
It resonates and you can see yourself.

00:29:25:14 - 00:29:28:01
Wade
So which, which one would you say you are.

00:29:28:04 - 00:29:46:26
Evan
Of those things. They're all for I think of I think of those five. They're all present right. So think yeah. Yeah I mean thinking about which one, which games fulfill which moments and which games. This is when you talk about like the good games invite you in. Right? Like, I wish I would have known exactly what you said.

00:29:47:02 - 00:30:20:05
Evan
Yeah. I'll go back and pull it. But the really great games hit on at least all five of these, right? Yeah. Actually, between challenge, immersion, relaxation, problem solving and creativity and emotional resonance, when they when you have something that hits you. Yeah. And that multifaceted way. That's how you know, I think the challenge when it comes to things that we're passionate about or things to move us right, when like something moves you or is interesting to you, it can be really challenging to unpack it in a way that you can share it with others.

00:30:20:07 - 00:30:40:21
Evan
like, I feel like a lot of the time I just want to try to explain something that's meaningful to me or like was impactful, especially in like a game format. I feel like I'm nine years old again in the backseat of my mom's car. Yeah, jabbering at her about Pokemon, right? Yeah. Like just thank you, mom. I love you.

00:30:40:23 - 00:31:10:08
Evan
That's that's it. You're putting up with me. But, you see, I didn't have, like, good language to express. What about collecting? The characters in the car? Made me feel right. So my question to you is, what are some ways that you have found that? Can you understand why you're enjoying and engaging with a certain part of something? And how do you translate that into sharing that experience and language that people can engage with without playing 10,000 hours of Final Fantasy?

00:31:10:08 - 00:31:42:17
Wade
Yeah. So I think with adults at least, it's different with kids because kids are they like what they like and they're going to talk about what they like. and sometimes the most annoying ways possible because like, I don't care about Roblox, but that's I'm so happy for you. but for for most of us, I think that it's identifying what is it that we like about this game and how does that contextualize for people that don't understand necessarily the games?

00:31:42:18 - 00:32:08:19
Wade
Yeah, for me, it's it's less important for me to say I love Final Fantasy is a game and you should too. I like to say, so I'm playing this game, but and I know that you're not a gamer, the story of this game has really impacted me. And to kind of talk about it in those terms and stuff, and it's like, if somebody ever asks me about games that I like, I will usually compare it.

00:32:08:19 - 00:32:27:05
Wade
If they're not a gamer, I'll usually compare it to a movie series or something like that. Yeah, I'm like, it's kind of like Lord of the rings that you can play or I, you know, like, what? What was it? Blade Runner? but it's interactive and that's like cyberpunk or something like that. It's just a very loose sort of thing.

00:32:27:11 - 00:32:58:22
Wade
It's like. But it's taken me on an experience and a journey with some characters that are just amazing. So I think that figuring out which of those five is most compelling to you and how it works for immersion, I think that we are moving into a day where immersive storytelling is becoming the norm. I mean, you look at things that Disney is doing right now, with, with their park experiences and even trying to do things through VR and their new gaming landscape.

00:32:58:22 - 00:33:08:05
Wade
We're seeing storytelling being raised up to the next level. in, in non gaming spaces.

00:33:08:08 - 00:33:32:20
Evan
Yeah. So taking the time to understand a little bit behind why you choose the games that you do and why you like the things that you like and you know, can help you to create some language in a lens to be able to share them with others. I think it goes to your point where you talked about, I'll go back to the quote for most games are like chocolate, a guilty pleasure consumed.

00:33:32:25 - 00:33:51:16
Evan
So for something that you invest as much time in as and can be so formative when we talk about games can take you deeper. We talk about with this show we want to do and model and talk about things that springboard us into the life that that we want. If we're going to invest this time in video games, there is some real opportunity for us to understand those things.

00:33:51:16 - 00:33:52:05
Evan
And so.

00:33:52:07 - 00:33:53:01
Wade
Yeah.

00:33:53:03 - 00:34:10:12
Evan
What advice would you give to somebody who is has a difficult time really talking about the things in video games that they love because like, you haven't played it for 400 hours, so you just wouldn't understand. It's like, how do we make these concepts approachable and share them with people in your lives? What would you say?

00:34:10:14 - 00:34:33:13
Wade
Yeah. And that's that's almost a gatekeeping sort of thing. I mean, the, the, the brand is never going to, to grow if we just say, well, you'll never understand that because you haven't played it. and that's not our goal. But if we really do believe that this is a medium that, is artful, it offers something to creative arts that nothing else can.

00:34:33:13 - 00:34:58:22
Wade
If we believe that this is the most immersive method of storytelling, then these are things that we what we should share and put out there in the world. And so how do you speak about it in a way that doesn't come off as, elitist or, weird, you know, to say it quite bluntly, you know, and I think that whenever I talk to anybody in a shoot, I do this every semester.

00:34:58:22 - 00:35:21:12
Wade
At the beginning, I always try to think who's in the room. So I've got an Alpha Chi Omega, and a Sigma Chi in the room, as well as an engineering major. Those are fraternities and sororities. Sorry, as well as an engineering major. I've got a pre-med over here. I've got my creative arts minor in the back. I've got literally everybody.

00:35:21:15 - 00:35:47:23
Wade
I've got a girl who's never played video games, and I've gotten somebody who, you know, is on the e-sports team. My question is I introduce Final Fantasy 15 for a lecture. to to make a point about Jewish kingship narratives is how do I get them to think of this not as a game, but as an experience that's going to help them understand life better.

00:35:47:25 - 00:35:57:23
Wade
And I think not everybody can do that. But I begin with the end in mind. Yeah. What do I want them to to feel and experience from this?

00:35:57:26 - 00:36:02:24
Evan
You have used the language that video games are a bit of a modern mythology.

00:36:02:27 - 00:36:03:11
Wade
Yeah.

00:36:03:14 - 00:36:12:19
Evan
What do you mean by that? And yeah, when you talk about the lessons, we can learn from it the same way that myths and stories told those lessons. I wonder if that has some relevance here.

00:36:12:21 - 00:36:53:07
Wade
Every culture in all of history has what they would refer to as, central or core myths. They are stories where they make meaning of the world around them. These are stories, parables, or proverbs that help societies evolve into what they want. It's through these stories and myths that you can see a culture's virtues and things that they are disgusted by, their highest ideals and hopes and wishes for life, for beyond life and for their community.

00:36:53:10 - 00:37:20:29
Wade
In modern culture, those mythologies have taken all kinds of forms. Some are in the form of religion, others are in the form of stories and books. in the not too recent, distant past, we've had movies, and now we're moving into an age of interactive mythology where we are able to experience these stories in games that are holding deep in our hearts.

00:37:21:01 - 00:37:47:16
Wade
where you play as the hero, you don't just read about Hercules, you're playing the experience of the highest virtue model or the things that disgust you. Your experimenting and exploring. And I think that that mythology is what is going to be forming these generations in the same way as I can recall how I felt when I finished Final Fantasy seven or when I finished, you know, Dragons Quest or whatever it is.

00:37:47:16 - 00:38:12:18
Wade
The Last of Us, the first one, I mean, I remember the night that I finished The Last of Us, and I sat with my roommate at the time and we talked for three hours until, like 3 or 4 in the morning, talking about the ending of that game, waiting all a bit. I share that not because of that one and done experience, but because that's a formative core, key memory for me in helping me think through my ethics.

00:38:12:18 - 00:38:50:17
Wade
Well, Fortnite is doing this today. They the these students junior highers currently who are spending money on loot boxes and battle passes and all that stuff. They're building relationships and memories where they will forever remember that season. Those characters, their favorite loadout in the experience that they had because they're learning ethics. They're learning how to relate to the world in a interactive, in an interactive playground in a way that that, non-gamers can't really understand.

00:38:50:20 - 00:38:55:29
Wade
But they will when they when this generation takes the marketplace.

00:38:56:02 - 00:39:15:24
Evan
And that is going to be an interesting thing to unpack for their segment about the lessons that are learned through these games as a service. Oh yeah. What opportunities or obligations some of these developers have to kind of the common good and what they do when they have people's attention and.

00:39:15:26 - 00:39:39:23
Wade
When when Grand Theft Auto six comes out, we have to have this conversation because there's ethical dilemmas in there, you know, and I, I'm a big proponent that video games do not create villains, okay. Like I do not. Okay. That that's a whole other segment. But I don't think that video games make you more or less violent or anything like that.

00:39:39:23 - 00:39:42:13
Wade
But there's research, the backs of research. When can get to that?

00:39:42:13 - 00:40:17:25
Evan
Well, we'll see if the research acts it up. So we've just spawned two spoilers, extra segments, for this forward. thanks for the time in the conversation. it I sometimes I just don't think about why I enjoy the things that I enjoy, but I definitely do believe that with greater intentionality and just a little bit of energy for understanding why I'm enjoying something, I will be able to experience it in a way that's more rich and more real for my life, by being able to actually talk about it, rather than just like you wouldn't understand.

00:40:17:28 - 00:40:18:25
Wade
Yeah.

00:40:18:27 - 00:40:20:15
Evan
Be good. All right. Have you like.

00:40:20:16 - 00:40:35:11
Wade
Truly, have you ever had a game where you were like, this is a moment of epiphany and it translated to real life? Oh, gosh. And yet you feel like it's so weird for me to go to a friend and be like, I just played this game and now I know what I want to do with my life, you know?

00:40:35:11 - 00:40:37:02
Evan
Yeah, I mean, I.

00:40:37:05 - 00:40:38:00
Wade
It happens.

00:40:38:00 - 00:40:47:02
Evan
Really, really stick out. yeah. You know, that I. I'll just tell you as an aside and we can just if this is the end of the segment. Bye.

00:40:47:03 - 00:40:48:29
Wade
We can edit this out, but,

00:40:49:02 - 00:41:03:27
Evan
I played, is in the area of Ragnarok where you, Atreus has his dream, and he wakes up and he's in the Ironwood, I think is where he is with the Giants, which was just a spectacular.

00:41:03:29 - 00:41:04:29
Wade
Decimate area.

00:41:05:06 - 00:41:07:04
Evan
Like, just anyways.

00:41:07:06 - 00:41:08:08
Wade
Immaculate. Yeah.

00:41:08:11 - 00:41:11:05
Evan
Then you meet. What's your face, grandma?

00:41:11:07 - 00:41:11:20
Wade
Yeah.

00:41:11:24 - 00:41:23:05
Evan
And, it just all of a sudden, out of nowhere becomes this incredible allegory for, like, how family members experience addiction.

00:41:23:07 - 00:41:25:08
Wade
Yes.

00:41:25:11 - 00:41:49:27
Evan
And it's like out of nowhere, she's like, she steals their souls of these animals to live in this memory, to feel something for a moment. But it's not real. And it's not permanent. But she just chains these moments together to feel alive and like wow. Like it's real. And then you have to take her or her bowl or whatever it is, and you have to steal it from her and break it.

00:41:50:00 - 00:42:09:24
Evan
And then she just screams these horrible things for breaking her like ability to experience her addiction at her granddaughter. And it's just like, and I'm just sitting there and it's like you do those moments where you stay up too late playing. But then the problem is the story just keeps getting better, keeps going.

00:42:09:24 - 00:42:09:29
Wade
Yeah.

00:42:10:02 - 00:42:26:03
Evan
So late at night. And I'm like, just trying to get past this thing and I'm having a great time with it. But then I'm like emotionally exhausted. Yeah. And and now I'm spinning and thinking about addiction and families and how this relates and how well that was that. And I was like, now I'm I should have gone to bed two hours ago.

00:42:26:03 - 00:42:28:02
Evan
Now I'm supposed to go to bed after this.

00:42:28:05 - 00:42:42:11
Wade
Yeah. I there's been so many times in my life when I've done that. I mean, yes. And there's something about those moments that's just like it begs you to interact with it in real time.

00:42:42:13 - 00:42:53:23
Evan
It's a totally different than watching or reading because you're is you're pushing the character forward. You're not just turning a page. You're not just not stopping the autoplay on a TV series.

00:42:53:26 - 00:43:04:24
Wade
Well, it's a simulation. And that's that's a perfect example of you actively integrating, the game into your own life. I mean, that's a fantasy to reality, to be honest. That's good.

00:43:04:26 - 00:43:23:10
Evan
Any news about between that, that and then the, perpetuation of the cycle of violence and Last of Us part two, the is just like, yes. it's crazy. They just did such an incredible job.

00:43:23:12 - 00:43:44:05
Wade
For all the flack that that game gets. I, I loved it, but it makes me. It always makes me wonder in my actions with other people, am I perpetuating a cycle of violence or does this lead to the ending that I would want? Or am I about to go to that beach there?

00:43:44:06 - 00:43:49:02
Evan
That's I mean, there's there's a couple moments and it just throws it right back in your face that.

00:43:49:05 - 00:43:50:05
Wade
Oh, it does were.

00:43:50:06 - 00:44:03:06
Evan
Really interesting. And I will say to the like criticisms of the things it if you're not getting pushback and criticism, you're probably not seeing much of anything. Yeah agreed. As far as agree and stuff like that goes when you look at that.

00:44:03:07 - 00:44:04:06
Wade
Yeah.

00:44:04:08 - 00:44:24:18
Evan
You know, it's open to criticism, that kind of stuff. But the narratively like, you know, if you're not rustling some feathers, then it's probably, you know, an interesting story worth experiencing anyways. Like if it's if it's just a wholesome thing and you want to do it, but if you're really trying to look at like things that exist in human experience, those are very messy.

00:44:24:20 - 00:44:48:17
Wade
Yeah. They are. This is what was said when I was, presenting my dissertation, you know, and they like, as I was writing this thing, somebody said, if everybody agrees with what you're saying, then you haven't done anything new, but instead a dissertation and good research is always going to call into question some other traditionally accepted model challenge.

00:44:48:17 - 00:44:49:11
Evan
It's going to challenge.

00:44:49:11 - 00:45:01:18
Wade
And it's going to challenge it. It's going to and I think that's exactly the case with art. How does it challenge and subvert expectations of what should be, could be, or is.

00:45:01:21 - 00:45:26:09
Evan
And we talked about the character creator and the difference between a story that's preset that you control the character. Yeah. You make a character and then a story that you make a character and can change the outcome of how those different paths are expansive differently. It makes me think of less of us for two, because we're doing the scene where they you first, control Abby.

00:45:26:11 - 00:45:36:21
Evan
And I get Abby. First of all, when I thought the game was over pretty much. And then at which time I'm playing Abby. Yeah. This is in the middle.

00:45:36:24 - 00:45:37:25
Wade
And in the middle. Yeah.

00:45:37:25 - 00:45:46:03
Evan
And then playing Abby and I'm like, oh, it's a flashback. And I'm playing Abby. Okay, I've played Abby before, no big deal. But then there's experience points.

00:45:46:05 - 00:45:47:02
Wade
Yeah.

00:45:47:04 - 00:45:48:21
Evan
And I'm like whoa whoa whoa whoa.

00:45:48:24 - 00:45:50:21
Wade
I remember that moment. Yes.

00:45:50:21 - 00:45:56:02
Evan
I was like, what? Why would I need experience for this flash freaking game?

00:45:56:06 - 00:45:56:19
Wade
Yes.

00:45:56:20 - 00:46:02:11
Evan
And then I realized, oh my word, there's an entire other half of.

00:46:02:12 - 00:46:03:10
Wade
There's another, there's.

00:46:03:10 - 00:46:05:20
Evan
Another half hiding. That's five false endings.

00:46:05:22 - 00:46:12:08
Wade
That's that. You're so right. It's like a half, another half. And then the final half. So. And then that adds up.

00:46:12:08 - 00:46:15:15
Evan
When I got Abby back to LA and you have to fight in.

00:46:15:15 - 00:46:16:27
Wade
The oh my gosh. Yeah.

00:46:16:28 - 00:46:23:09
Evan
I just let Ellie kill Abby like six times because I was like, I'm gonna fight there.

00:46:23:11 - 00:46:26:18
Wade
I got to do it. I think so many people did that because I wanted.

00:46:26:21 - 00:46:31:12
Evan
I was like, I want this, like, I need this to end. Like, this needs to end like this.

00:46:31:14 - 00:46:31:29
Wade
Yeah.

00:46:32:02 - 00:46:41:04
Evan
But having to fight that through and then having to have that fight on the beach at the end to just like, yeah, really just be miserable within that cycle of violence.

00:46:41:04 - 00:47:02:08
Wade
Oh, I think it's I think it's perfect. I do and it, it unsettles you in just the right way. I mean, it's the same thing as, Oh, shoot. I don't remember which Call of Duty it was, but it's the no Russian level where you play that classic level and you have to shoot an airport, right?

00:47:02:11 - 00:47:08:18
Wade
you can skip it. but I, I chose to play it for research. but it was.

00:47:08:20 - 00:47:12:07
Evan
It was, research for what exactly? We put up.

00:47:12:08 - 00:47:16:18
Wade
Oh, yeah. I should clarify.

00:47:20:22 - 00:47:28:20
Wade
I was researching my own psyche.

00:47:28:23 - 00:47:53:28
Wade
But that that game, that that level. I mean, it's a visceral reaction. You feel like you hate doing it, and yet it it to this day makes me think, you know, what, do, undercover operatives have to do that they don't align with? But it's for the greater good, you know, and it's like, how do you how do you do that?

00:47:54:00 - 00:48:01:01
Wade
and that game, I mean, I played it ten, 12 years ago or whatever, and it still sticks with me.

00:48:01:01 - 00:48:03:11
Evan
When games can explore that in such a different way.

00:48:03:14 - 00:48:18:14
Wade
Oh, absolutely. It is so different to play through that level and do these heinous things versus reading about it or even watching it. because you're the one, especially in those games, pulling the trigger. My gosh.

00:48:18:17 - 00:48:19:05
Evan
Yeah.

00:48:19:07 - 00:48:20:17
Wade
Oh my gosh. Yes.

00:48:20:17 - 00:48:26:25
Evan
So well, good side discussion. If this is where we end the segment by hey listen thanks for.

00:48:26:28 - 00:48:30:16
Wade
Yeah that was great. It was great.

00:48:30:16 - 00:48:46:28
Evan
Okay. It is the middle of the episode, which means that it's time to hit that music for our mini game. Stretch, break that bubble bubble, blah blah blah blah blah up up up up, blah blah blah. Thank you everybody. All right.

00:48:46:28 - 00:48:48:09
Wade
Everyone had some that had some.

00:48:48:09 - 00:48:50:24
Evan
Vigor to that one did because we need to just break. Okay.

00:48:50:24 - 00:48:53:09
Wade
First we need it. So yeah we got to stretch.

00:48:53:12 - 00:48:55:22
Evan
I'm really stretching. Just stretching.

00:48:55:24 - 00:49:02:15
Wade
Oh, everybody stretch. Not Daisy back here. No, you ain't going to stretch it. No, she is sound asleep.

00:49:02:17 - 00:49:15:22
Evan
We have the wheel of vulnerability. We have our geek therapy cards for our get today. You questions here for the stretch break. So we are stretching our bodies and we're stretching our minds. If you're on the YouTube, you can see Millard.

00:49:15:25 - 00:49:16:22
Wade
Millard.

00:49:16:24 - 00:49:23:22
Evan
All right everybody we pick a number between 1 and 50 because there are 50 numbers in this thing.

00:49:23:24 - 00:49:24:05
Wade
Counting.

00:49:24:07 - 00:49:49:12
Evan
If he gets it. All right I got to pick a number. What number do you want? This time? Wait. 32 listener. You can pick your own number. I'm going to pick 12. All right, so 12 and 32. Listener, pick your number. You hear the bingo. Wheel of vulnerability spinning. Call me when weighed when, when and. What? You said 32 and I said 12.

00:49:49:19 - 00:49:52:11
Wade
I said 32. Yes.

00:49:52:14 - 00:50:00:25
Evan
That number is four. Four. It is. You guessed four. You were threat. Congratulations.

00:50:00:27 - 00:50:08:03
Wade
Okay, here it is.

00:50:08:05 - 00:50:10:14
Wade
Sorry, I picked the wrong day.

00:50:10:16 - 00:50:13:04
Evan
What?

00:50:13:06 - 00:50:18:17
Wade
There we go. Now we got it.

00:50:18:19 - 00:50:19:06
Wade
Okay.

00:50:19:08 - 00:50:20:19
Evan
The art of.

00:50:20:19 - 00:50:42:25
Wade
Video game development is making a game that guides the player in setting and achieving goals. The game itself provides consistent feedback and encouragement as to motivate and empower the player. We don't always get that in real life, but if we could, what would that look like to you? Who would be giving you the experiencing points and how frequently?

00:50:42:25 - 00:51:05:16
Wade
How could your life goals be reframed to feel more achieve a ball? So I mean, we ask those questions. The game itself provides consistent feedback and encouragement as to motivate and empower the player. We don't get that in real life a lot of times, but how would that look like to you? Who gives experience points? How frequently? How could your life goals be reframed?

00:51:05:19 - 00:51:14:29
Evan
Okay, so who is it in your life that helps? Is your level up screen that you process your growth and development with? Is that the question. Yeah.

00:51:15:00 - 00:51:17:01
Wade
Sorry. There's some my okay.

00:51:17:08 - 00:51:25:00
Evan
It's just a very emotional question. It's very oh that who is it.

00:51:25:02 - 00:51:31:17
Wade
Yeah. And what would it look like to get that feedback and encouragement of goal setting and achieving goals? Oh yeah.

00:51:31:20 - 00:51:38:28
Evan
So I'm the kind of person that loves to create, idealize systems and then go against that which I have created for myself.

00:51:39:04 - 00:51:42:21
Wade
Sure. You are a micromanager that hates yourself.

00:51:42:23 - 00:51:49:26
Evan
Yeah, I have, I I'd say my strategic mind is judgmental of my, you know.

00:51:49:29 - 00:51:51:24
Wade
You're constantly sidelining yourself.

00:51:51:28 - 00:52:05:13
Evan
I am I, you know, and you know, I reinvent myself every night before I fall asleep, right? Like, it's like, oh, tomorrow is going to be different because I'm going to do these things in these things and differently. And then you fall asleep and half the time you forget what you were.

00:52:05:17 - 00:52:07:00
Wade
That's in.

00:52:07:03 - 00:52:31:05
Evan
So, I think what it would be like for me, I, I'm not a big like, measure and tracker. I've been thinking a lot about, this statement that here, I'll read here it was from a business development video that I was watching. It said when progress is measured, progress improves. When progress is measured and reported, the rate of progress increases.

00:52:31:07 - 00:52:53:01
Evan
So. I just let that be what it is. I read it one more time. We're progress that's good for us. Improves when progress is measured and reported. The rate increases. And I think that statement has been challenging to me. and so I think measuring and reporting would be something that would be I don't know how I would do it, but I just don't track things.

00:52:53:01 - 00:52:56:05
Evan
So how about you?

00:52:56:07 - 00:53:20:18
Wade
I have a journal called the Full Focus Planner. visited every morning. and it gives me, space to think through. What are my top three goals to achieve this particular day? And so, that's how I measure and report on things. what it essentially does is it, it gives me, it gives me quest markers, okay.

00:53:20:21 - 00:53:43:13
Wade
Where I'm accomplishing these things and at the very end of my day, I'm like, okay, I, I at least did these three things. Maybe write a chapter of this book or an outline of a video script or streaming or whatever it is. so that I don't feel like I've wasted aimlessly ever been in the game and you just feel like you did nothing.

00:53:43:15 - 00:54:05:13
Wade
Like, maybe like I sometimes just like, as somebody that takes a lot of pictures and video games, like there are times where I just do my did I play the game and I did, but it's just like I accomplished nothing. I didn't turn in same quest. I don't want my real life to feel like that. And so, that's why the full Focus planner has been really, really helpful to me.

00:54:05:15 - 00:54:21:08
Wade
but I also need people, you know, people like you, people, that are in my life that are like, hey, how's that thing going? so maybe it's that timely coffee conversation that you have with somebody and that that's who's giving me experience points and, an attaboy leveling up or something.

00:54:21:10 - 00:54:44:23
Evan
Well, there you go. Well, as we continue our mini game, stretch break, listener for you, what does that look like for you? What does it look like to have some feedback and some ability to really decipher the ways that you've grown and leveled up and processed the world around you? Think about it. Talk to somebody. Tell somebody thank you when they're that in your life, and we'll see you in the next segment.

00:54:46:17 - 00:55:10:04
Speaker 1
Hey, everyone. We are now going to go into part two of our Character Creator series. Let's find out what we learned in part one. Last time we talked about how I tortured people in The Sims, how Wade ran a WWE Fight Club in college, and how ABC stole the concept of The Bachelor from me. So that being said, if you want to catch up on this first part of this segment, you can listen episode one.

00:55:10:04 - 00:55:18:20
Speaker 1
But we just caught you up on everything you need to know. So just keep letting that roll and let's check out the second part of our three part series on character creators.

00:55:19:20 - 00:55:47:15
Evan
So when it comes to the ability to create these characters, let's talk a little bit about how we got here in games, because we can start from like general play and like tabletop games I think are probably a great. So I know that you don't play a lot of like role playing tabletop games, but I think we probably need to mention it as like the root of a lot of the history, because that is where you could make your own character.

00:55:47:16 - 00:55:48:12
Wade
Oh, yeah. I mean, you.

00:55:48:12 - 00:56:08:20
Evan
Could give your name, you could give them descriptions, these vivid backstories. But then from there, that started to inspire a lot of video games, early video games, you really didn't have much of a choice to choose your character. But I do remember even arguing over like player one, player two, or if one was like red and one was blue and the troll fighting over controllers, right?

00:56:08:20 - 00:56:09:11
Wade
I mean, there's this.

00:56:09:12 - 00:56:12:11
Evan
Desire for agency even in the earliest days. I think that's.

00:56:12:11 - 00:56:38:12
Wade
Fair. My brother and I would oftentimes fight, and even to this day, I think that he has more of a, leaning toward Luigi than he does Mario. But that's second board. Hey, you want to hear something hilarious about that? Oh my gosh. so my brother, when he got married, he had a bachelor party, and I was in charge of this, in addition to all the things you do over a weekend and stuff, there was one thing.

00:56:38:12 - 00:57:00:18
Wade
All the groomsmen, I said to them, you get a gift for my brother. And, we have to make him earn it. So he has to take on all of these different challenges to earn it. So they did wild things, like, you have to build a raft from trees and sail across the lake. I mean, these were things that like, we made him.

00:57:00:20 - 00:57:39:29
Wade
Here's what I made him do, okay? I created on this kind of like, lake side house sort of thing that we were staying at for the weekend. An obstacle course. Okay, that accumulated Mario Brothers level one one, and I made him wear a Luigi hat. And here's what I told him. I said, you have always been player two, but moving forward you have to be player one like, you don't get to be player two in your marriage, but you have to be, you know, player one alongside your wife because you are creating your future with your wife.

00:57:39:29 - 00:58:02:22
Wade
Right? You've always lived in my shadow as a player to tell me something that a big brother can say, right? And I was like, so you have to do this. So now listen, he put on this Luigi hat and ran this obstacle. I said, but one caveat I'm no longer Mario. I'm now Bowser and I had a paintball gun and was shooting fireballs at him the entire time.

00:58:02:24 - 00:58:05:21
Wade
And this was that was it. That's how I send him off.

00:58:05:21 - 00:58:10:10
Evan
So I think that's great for the coins like that he coins.

00:58:10:16 - 00:58:17:15
Wade
And there was a star at the top of a flagpole he had to climb at the end. It was the whole deal. I went full force and it was amazing.

00:58:17:20 - 00:58:20:15
Evan
That is not surprising at all. And then you would you would do that.

00:58:20:15 - 00:58:23:11
Wade
When I go after something, I go full on, you know.

00:58:23:11 - 00:58:46:18
Evan
Yeah. No, that's a great that's a great memory. But I mean I think that is the core of it. Right. Like you, whenever you have choice there, you start to see yourself in it and the way that you embody choices just because they are your reality, like, interesting. Because we would do it with different, like airplanes or jets in games.

00:58:46:20 - 00:58:54:28
Evan
and in the early Final Fantasy, the earliest time that I remember being able to name a character is probably the Oregon Trail. Do you remember that game? Play that one.

00:58:54:28 - 00:58:59:05
Wade
Match? Who doesn't? I mean, I never got past dysentery with it, but yeah.

00:58:59:07 - 00:59:07:08
Evan
I don't think anyone ever did. no one. Never for that one. And the trail to Oregon. There are no survivors.

00:59:07:10 - 00:59:09:08
Wade
There are no.

00:59:09:11 - 00:59:23:20
Evan
So we would do that. We would name, of course, the first thing that we did as kids would be the name our characters after different people. And then when misfortune would fall on them, it feels was.

00:59:23:25 - 00:59:24:20
Wade
Yeah, it.

00:59:24:20 - 00:59:50:20
Evan
Would almost come to blows because you also got to choose, like the treatment that you were going to do when someone fell ill. Right. So once we realized that there was a correlation to survival and like, efficiency of time, like, for example, if one of our characters fell ill and there were 3 or 4 of us watching the game, we're like, well, the options are press on, rest, go to town and get some medicine or something.

00:59:50:20 - 00:59:52:17
Evan
And so if it was you, you're like.

00:59:52:19 - 00:59:54:16
Wade
Get the medicine, medicine.

00:59:54:19 - 01:00:03:11
Evan
Save. And then and then you'd be like clawing to try and hit the button on the keyboard while like people are holding you back. I mean, the intensity of these memories is coming back to me.

01:00:03:15 - 01:00:21:10
Wade
Real life resentment, right? I you know, I remember I have not played I've not played a lot of D and D, in fact, I've only done one campaign and it fell apart like before we got to the end because I was playing, there were a group of, roommates that were were housing it for, for all of us.

01:00:21:12 - 01:00:26:15
Wade
And, some of their real life issues kind of came out in the middle of it.

01:00:26:17 - 01:00:28:23
Evan
I assume that's never happened. Ever.

01:00:28:23 - 01:00:45:23
Wade
But I know never. Right. And so, like, I mean, I'm like, it's a Wild West sort of thing. And so I'm just like, you know, for my spirit rogue, sort of like with a big Western trenchcoat, enjoying my vibe, but a little mysterious. That was my I love that you.

01:00:45:25 - 01:00:56:13
Evan
It's a brief story, but you remember your character, their attitude and their garb in detail because I. Okay, you lived it. It was real.

01:00:56:13 - 01:01:11:00
Wade
Do you? It's not that. I just lived it, but they said, we need you to make a character sketch of your your character, right. I didn't realize there was a form. I freaking drew him. I have a picture of him, so I'll have to find it and send it to you. Wing put it in the clip, it emotes or whatever.

01:01:11:05 - 01:01:13:25
Wade
But like, he's awesome.

01:01:13:27 - 01:01:17:26
Evan
What was that character's name?

01:01:17:28 - 01:01:25:12
Wade
Ryder or wider?

01:01:25:15 - 01:01:27:26
Evan
With the southern accent. Rat. Ryder.

01:01:27:29 - 01:01:29:10
Wade
But that was. That was all.

01:01:29:12 - 01:01:30:05
Evan
Did you do a voice?

01:01:30:11 - 01:01:35:01
Wade
I did, I did it was a good old southern twang.

01:01:35:04 - 01:01:38:23
Evan
would it be possible to get just a cat? I can, I can change in.

01:01:38:23 - 01:01:39:13
Wade
Several years.

01:01:39:13 - 01:01:41:06
Evan
Ago in writer's voice.

01:01:41:06 - 01:02:03:11
Wade
But I like his his basic, sort of persona and personality was going back to text based games. The simple dot dot dot. So everything was like one word gruff, mysterious. It was like, I don't think that's a good idea. And it was it was things like that. Right.

01:02:03:13 - 01:02:07:26
Evan
you let the the space in between the words say everything you need to say.

01:02:07:28 - 01:02:13:19
Wade
That's all you need. and things like that, you know, like.

01:02:13:21 - 01:02:20:18
Evan
he was just a of, like, a more that Don Sanders meets Clint Eastwood from that.

01:02:20:19 - 01:02:25:21
Wade
That's exactly it. That dog don't hunt.

01:02:25:24 - 01:02:32:24
Evan
I can just see you doing that to try and defuze a very tense situation where, like, a real life couple is arguing that.

01:02:32:26 - 01:02:50:09
Wade
They're fighting and, like, one of them left the other for dead and went to strike at the enemy, the boss, instead of heal the guy. And then the guy bled out. And I think that my response was something like, let the dead bury the dead, and we just have to keep going.

01:02:50:12 - 01:02:51:13
Evan
That's why I didn't.

01:02:51:14 - 01:02:54:03
Wade
Diffuse the situation, but I was like, yeah.

01:02:54:05 - 01:02:57:10
Evan
we stayed in character. I honestly good for you.

01:02:57:14 - 01:02:59:10
Wade
Because I'm a role player. That's what I'm.

01:02:59:11 - 01:03:13:07
Evan
This is this is this has to happen later. Like, we we're going to have to run some sort of deep, we get somebody to, to run it, and we need to get a few choice characters and.

01:03:13:09 - 01:03:16:13
Wade
The resurrection writer. That's what I need.

01:03:16:16 - 01:03:16:26
Evan
To.

01:03:16:26 - 01:03:17:09
Wade
Bring him.

01:03:17:09 - 01:03:20:03
Evan
Back to indie writers resurrection.

01:03:20:03 - 01:03:45:13
Wade
Listen, this guy had the best backstory that I never, ever got into. Okay? Like, he was a, like, soldier for an army that was like colonizing the West. Okay? Like it was. It was out of control. And then he was taken to the edge and forced to do things that he didn't want to do, like his, his battalion or whatever was scorching an entire Native American village.

01:03:45:13 - 01:04:02:14
Wade
Okay. And they fought back and like, drove off the battalion, but they they captured rider. Okay. And then it was like a Pocahontas sort of situation where a translator between the chief and rider fell in love.

01:04:02:16 - 01:04:13:17
Evan
Okay, this is the backstory of the I character. You you basically took cloud from Final Fantasy and dropped him in Dances With Wolves. I did like that.

01:04:13:17 - 01:04:18:21
Wade
Like he also had spiky blond hair, you know, very large.

01:04:18:25 - 01:04:21:05
Evan
Like, sort.

01:04:21:07 - 01:04:40:13
Wade
I'm telling you, the and but like, we never got to that part because like, I guess I miss rode him or like, it was only supposed to be like a six week thing, but it ended on week four because of real life drama. Yeah. but like, eventually there was like this back story that was going to come out, but that's like an act two sort of thing.

01:04:40:13 - 01:04:42:20
Wade
And like it was the six week sort.

01:04:42:20 - 01:04:54:10
Evan
Of this feels until back to the nature of character creators, like how deeply we get attached to things. This feels like your story of writer is unreal.

01:04:54:12 - 01:04:59:25
Wade
It's unresolved, and I feel like one day I'd love to see Rider Revisited. Oh, that'd be good.

01:04:59:25 - 01:05:18:06
Evan
Rider rider revisit. That's good. That's good. Rider. This this is a face is incredible. Well, I love how much it means to you because you spent time on it. Right? I think the things that we invest in and the things that we spend our time on and our imagination on, we give up. We give a piece of ourselves to that.

01:05:18:06 - 01:05:23:14
Evan
Yeah, that that's kind of the idea that we can operate in with some of these things. And so.

01:05:23:16 - 01:05:24:02
Wade
That's what do you.

01:05:24:09 - 01:05:24:29
Evan
Talk more about?

01:05:25:06 - 01:05:46:08
Wade
Let me say that like I, you know, with the things that we create, there is a deeply personal aspect to it. Now, a lot of people would say, I'm not a very creative type. I just follow archetypes and all this kind of stuff like I do the I personal auto generate for both the name and the esthetic. But there becomes this, this kinship with the avatar that you've created.

01:05:46:15 - 01:06:20:02
Wade
That is that, that is you and you're experiencing the world through the eyes and the movement and the agency of this particular avatar. And so you, you do get connected to it. This is why and this is the core of my research, academically. This is why when you play a game, you create first person memories. I mean, your brain translates and encounters games differently than it does movies, books, and videos, anything like that.

01:06:20:02 - 01:06:46:00
Wade
You you internalize it. I've said it on literally every podcast I've ever been on. It is the reason why when you talk to someone or a child, right? Say talking about their experience with Mario, they never say, oh yeah, Mario saved the princess. They always say, what? I saved the princess, right? It's always that first person thing that is the simplest way to describe what's happening in the processes of the brain.

01:06:46:02 - 01:07:03:07
Wade
And so when you have that agency of like, oh yeah, I created this character even in its most simplistic forms, that's a piece of you. And what happens to that character deeply affects you and you feel it differently. I think it's the coolest thing about video games.

01:07:03:10 - 01:07:28:07
Evan
I think it is so interesting the way that we don't realize how early we've recognized that feeling of agency. So I remember playing Super Smash Brothers with some friends and his younger cousin, who couldn't have been more than two, three, four. Right. and he wanted to play, and he always wanted to be Red Mario. He wanted to be Red Mario.

01:07:28:09 - 01:07:29:06
Evan
Red Mario.

01:07:29:07 - 01:07:30:19
Wade
Read. Mario.

01:07:30:21 - 01:07:49:07
Evan
And we didn't have the controller plugged in one time, and he is just doing it's not working. But he didn't really know. He knew that when he moved the stick to the character, but we were like, oh, he may not notice or whatever. And he's just like, it's like he's like pleading with us. He goes, it's not working.

01:07:49:07 - 01:08:01:02
Evan
I'm not in control of this. And like, he knew what was going on and he was at an age where I went, oh my gosh, like he is. Yeah. You can really like this lived experience is is really embodied.

01:08:01:04 - 01:08:26:23
Wade
He's kid. And this is what I and I think Nintendo has gotten this earlier than than most other game developers. It is this idea of like gaming is accessible inherent in the human experience. And so what can you do to make it, you know, cookies on the bottom shelf sort of thing. Like, I started playing games when I was five years old.

01:08:26:23 - 01:08:43:17
Wade
My dad brought home a Nintendo Entertainment System. I didn't know what a video game was, but I knew, like I said, I'm this little guy, Mario, I guess. Yeah. And I make my way to the flagpole and at the end of this, there's a mushroom guy or there's a princess. But, like, that's all I needed to know.

01:08:43:17 - 01:08:44:13
Evan
It's enough.

01:08:44:15 - 01:09:07:25
Wade
And it it works or it doesn't work, you know, I guess, like, I didn't have to think through as, like, sometimes gamers have these, like, high minded conversations about, like, technology. Or is this game good or not? When you're five years old, it's like, no, that's me. This is fun. And that's that's the building blocks of the entire experience of gaming.

01:09:07:25 - 01:09:10:06
Wade
I think.

01:09:10:08 - 01:09:47:02
Evan
We do put a lot of pressure on ourselves to have more fun, or enough fun or more interesting fun, and the way that you interact with the character on the screen personally, do you think it's always overtly conscious, or do you think there's some subconscious elements that are just latent when you're in control of something, rather than just watching something happen and maybe to do you think there's a difference in games where you can actually make decisions, or where you're just controlling the character on kind of a bit of a set story?

01:09:47:02 - 01:09:54:08
Evan
Because I think there's some distinctions here that we would need to explore around character creators as they relate to the type of game.

01:09:54:08 - 01:10:15:18
Wade
Yeah. So I have different perspectives on the second question. the first question that you mentioned, I think that, I think that the, the actually can you rephrase the first part of that question again, I want to make sure that I'm I'm really understanding it.

01:10:15:20 - 01:10:40:09
Evan
So when we're playing a game, right, there's the scenes where you say, I'm going to do this because I want this to happen, or I'm making I'm making the character jump, or I am doing this part of the story. And so we say I it's it's important to me because I am in control of this game. And do you think a lot of that is overtly conscious, or do you think that even if we would say, I don't really care about this, I'm just playing the game.

01:10:40:09 - 01:10:46:21
Evan
There's something going on subconsciously that is helping us memorialize or connect with it.

01:10:46:24 - 01:11:10:11
Wade
I think that it has to do with the the player in that respect, because, I mean, you and I play games for different reasons. you are big on gameplay, I'm big on story. And so if if a goal is not compelling to me, then I'm out, right? But if a goal is compelling to me, no amount of bad gameplay is going to keep me from that goal.

01:11:10:14 - 01:11:21:16
Wade
Fascinating, right? Like I, I have a high tolerance for bad gameplay. If the story is compelling enough for me to continue.

01:11:21:19 - 01:11:22:07
Evan
Yeah.

01:11:22:09 - 01:11:36:26
Wade
Right. Like that's that's it. And if there is not a story and because I do play for story in that, that kind of sort of role playing sort of element. There's a lot of sins that I can look over. if it's a good experience in that respect.

01:11:36:28 - 01:11:44:03
Evan
I mean, it makes you think about the people in your life, right? Your friends, your family and the things that motivate them. Because I think it goes to motivation.

01:11:44:05 - 01:11:44:20
Wade
Yeah.

01:11:44:21 - 01:12:01:22
Evan
Yeah, it in a lot of ways. and so what? And then I think there's different tolerances that we would have for it than others, because there's some stories that I get super into. It's the same thing with a TV show. I'll watch a bad TV show if I want to see how it resolves. whereas other friends what?

01:12:01:22 - 01:12:10:00
Evan
But with the gameplay, there's something about the active engagement and the demand of the attention that you're right, you you absolutely nailed how I feel. I would it makes it hard for.

01:12:10:00 - 01:12:31:27
Wade
Me, man. That's a really interesting point because I have zero tolerance for a good story told poorly, in a TV show. But a game I'm like, this good game played poorly or like with bad gameplay. I am willing to see it through to the end. I it's really interesting.

01:12:31:29 - 01:12:41:18
Evan
I think it's tolerance to just to speak for myself. There's tolerance for worlds that are created that I just want to spend more time in. Like mentally, you're.

01:12:41:18 - 01:12:42:00
Wade
Telling me.

01:12:42:01 - 01:13:02:00
Evan
That I will engage with content that maybe it doesn't achieve a ton of critical acclaim, or is criticized or isn't, frankly, very great and could have been done better because I just love I want to see their interpretation of the world. I want to I want to be more curious about the different characters or the setting or how they would do those things.

01:13:02:03 - 01:13:06:25
Evan
And it's like once it has my curiosity, it's over. Like, I can't.

01:13:06:28 - 01:13:25:05
Wade
I mean, you're talking to maybe the number one fan of Final Fantasy 15, one of the most reviled games, of all time maybe, I don't know. I mean, people really don't what I. And there's a whole development history, expectations of what that game could have been when it was called versus 13. It. Yeah.

01:13:25:06 - 01:13:35:27
Evan
Give me one, one extremely oversimplified sentence spoken to a church or an elementary school or.

01:13:36:00 - 01:14:06:20
Wade
Final fantasy 15 began as a game called Final Fantasy versus 13 that was extremely dark and very meta, with very high gameplay possibilities. However, when the director was taken off of the project and replaced, it became a bit more of a simpler game, with a focus not so much on dynamic and dark gameplay, but on the bonds of friendship and even, Divine warfare.

01:14:06:22 - 01:14:09:28
Wade
That was a disappointment to those that wanted the first.

01:14:10:00 - 01:14:17:20
Evan
That was a very good sentence, a very heavy, however. And then a semicolon.

01:14:17:23 - 01:14:20:18
Wade
Yeah, it's it's a long sentence, but it's.

01:14:20:18 - 01:14:23:29
Evan
Kind of as you can see. Please don't kill me. The one with the car.

01:14:23:29 - 01:14:29:17
Wade
It's the one with the car like that. I mean, that's like the the car is like a character in that one. Yeah.

01:14:29:19 - 01:14:47:29
Evan
Yeah, Herbie. Not quite like that, but similar. We used to play, putt putt. There's, there's a game called putt. Putt putt was a car that would backfire putt putt, putt putt. And we controlled the car. And so anybody out there who played putt putt growing up as a kid, not putt putt golf, but, I mean.

01:14:47:29 - 01:14:56:25
Wade
That's that's basically the spiritual predecessor of Final Fantasy 15. I would say putt putt.

01:14:56:27 - 01:15:12:01
Evan
I think, I mean, I'm just going to share this with you. I can't share it with you. Just, just just Google putt putt. It's a purple car with AI cartoon eyebrows and a dog rides in the back. I think, honestly, I think you would have loved putt putt.

01:15:12:01 - 01:15:13:22
Wade
Oh my God, there he is.

01:15:13:25 - 01:15:14:21
Evan
He's amazing.

01:15:14:23 - 01:15:16:24
Wade
Big top circus.

01:15:16:26 - 01:15:17:10
Evan
Oh yeah. He had.

01:15:17:10 - 01:15:18:23
Wade
No entertainment.

01:15:18:26 - 01:15:21:26
Evan
Dude. He had all sorts of adventures. Well, putt putt.

01:15:21:26 - 01:15:22:16
Wade
Pretty little.

01:15:22:16 - 01:15:24:16
Evan
Dog. My brother and I and putt putt went.

01:15:24:16 - 01:15:31:15
Wade
Miles of putt putt putt putt joins the parade. He goes to the zoo. He travels through time.

01:15:31:17 - 01:15:37:17
Evan
He does. We got a little existential I think we're seeing a lot of the putt kills.

01:15:37:17 - 01:15:44:10
Wade
God what?

01:15:44:13 - 01:15:52:11
Wade
It is a Final Fantasy. Everything is Final Fantasy putt. Putt putt has existential crisis.

01:15:52:11 - 01:15:55:07
Evan
That's.

01:15:55:09 - 01:15:59:09
Wade
Putt putt has amnesia. I cannot remember his hometown.

01:15:59:12 - 01:16:10:08
Evan
gosh, I wish they would have numbered them like Final Fantasy games. Like the putt putt one, two and three, but only in Roman numerals. Right. But then just to confuse the kids, you go back and column 4 or 5 and six.

01:16:10:10 - 01:16:13:10
Wade
Putt putt versus 13. Yeah, absolutely.

01:16:13:16 - 01:16:18:22
Evan
As a kid, I don't know if I could have handled multiple putt putt discs.

01:16:18:24 - 01:16:24:15
Wade
Putt putt meets the whispers that that's a deep dive for Final Fantasy seven. Fantasy.

01:16:24:18 - 01:16:36:28
Evan
It was, you know, lessons on like overcoming obstacles in friendships and it was it was sure. Why don't we listen I will I will not have the good name of putt putt just besmirched here in this chat.

01:16:36:28 - 01:16:48:01
Wade
I know that we've talked about a segment called Games That We hate. making each other play games that we hate pop up could be a big contender for me.

01:16:48:03 - 01:16:56:10
Evan
Oh, it's just a game. It's just a story game where you click like, did you ever play like, I think it's called Space Quest.

01:16:56:13 - 01:16:59:23
Wade
No, I did not. So quest, what are you doing to me?

01:16:59:23 - 01:17:05:08
Evan
Space quest? Oh, yeah. You have no idea. Do you have I?

01:17:05:11 - 01:17:17:17
Wade
This is the most, like, AI generated Twitch avatar logo I've ever seen. Space quest. I mean, it's clearly indicative of the 90s. I. Yes, I.

01:17:17:17 - 01:17:37:17
Evan
Think we probably need to give people some context. So I didn't I didn't grow up playing console games. I played this at my friends houses. We had a PC that we were allowed to install games on. So that is we friends. That is how I am. And eventually we get a very different.

01:17:37:19 - 01:17:39:05
Wade
Origin story between that part of.

01:17:39:05 - 01:18:00:19
Evan
It. But we are we are approaching it from like like if I wanted to play games, I had to learn how to type on mS-DOS and like hit enter to load the games, because if you loaded them in windows 3.1, the computer didn't have enough memory to run the game and the operating system. So you had to boot into DOS and then like put up like floppy disk games or like my first.

01:18:00:21 - 01:18:02:04
Evan
Anyways, it doesn't matter.

01:18:02:05 - 01:18:06:28
Wade
Do you just like torture and pain? Like that's that's what PC gaming I'm condition.

01:18:06:28 - 01:18:11:27
Evan
I see myself as a character. This condition for high tolerance sure I do I okay.

01:18:12:01 - 01:18:22:08
Wade
So while you were discussing that I did Google Space Quest, I what is this? So it was I just found here.

01:18:22:08 - 01:18:26:02
Evan
It was essentially like a point and click adventure where.

01:18:26:03 - 01:18:28:28
Wade
Pig people with mohawks.

01:18:29:00 - 01:18:38:18
Evan
Yeah. Their character. So you would choose different things and as you went through the game, like terrible things would happen to your character and there was like some comedy, I'm going to make you play this one.

01:18:38:21 - 01:18:40:18
Wade
Oh my gosh, that's another stuff.

01:18:40:23 - 01:18:44:20
Evan
That's not not even games. You hate games from your childhood that you miss.

01:18:44:20 - 01:18:48:07
Wade
Games from your childhood you've missed. Now that'd be it. That'd be a fun, like.

01:18:48:07 - 01:18:51:11
Evan
20 bucks about this whole thing. I cannot wait to talk to my brother about this.

01:18:51:11 - 01:18:55:16
Wade
Wait, this game is 20 bucks in 2024 of the year of our Lord.

01:18:55:16 - 01:18:57:05
Evan
What's the. It's all of them.

01:18:57:08 - 01:19:01:23
Wade
Oh, all of them. Well, that doesn't make it much better, I guess, but it's a point and click.

01:19:01:23 - 01:19:04:13
Evan
Did you not play like Myst back in the day on the computer?

01:19:04:13 - 01:19:11:27
Wade
I did play Myst. Mr.. Was I, I thought there would be a really good story with Myst, but.

01:19:12:00 - 01:19:13:12
Evan
You make your own story in this.

01:19:13:12 - 01:19:39:02
Wade
Yeah, same, I don't know. But again, kind of going back to our primary conversation somewhere back in the recesses of this, I and I think this goes to the second part of your question that I didn't really get to like. Again, it depends on the player, but I think there's something about experiencing a curated story that's laid out for you.

01:19:39:02 - 01:20:05:14
Wade
For example, like the reason why I love Final Fantasy is because I'm not making the story, but I have a conduit for experiencing a story that has themes and stuff that helped me think about life. Right? This is one of the reasons why I really was late to the MMO party, because I never felt like they could tell a story that was as engaging when it had to be intentionally vague.

01:20:05:14 - 01:20:18:02
Wade
I think why Final Fantasy 14 has been such a marvel to me. I enjoyed World of Warcraft. There's two things I liked about World of Warcraft. Number one, I got to hang out with my friends even though I was living in other states. Number two.

01:20:18:04 - 01:20:19:02
Evan
Massive.

01:20:19:04 - 01:20:46:02
Wade
Yeah. Number two was the fact. And this wasn't until The Wrath of the Lich King. That was a story that felt good. Felt like a Final Fantasy, honestly. And I was like, yeah, I'm here for this. There was one instanced dungeon where you're following this like flashback of Arthas that I remember, and it's like his downfall. It felt to me like the Noble Home Flashback and Final Fantasy seven.

01:20:46:02 - 01:21:04:09
Wade
It's the origin story of his dark turn and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is it. This is what it could be. Final fantasy 14 capitalized on that. And that's one okay. I'm like, okay, if you can do it like that, then I'm in. But if it's simply like, here's the world, it's your playground, make your own story.

01:21:04:12 - 01:21:13:11
Wade
Well, that's not quite as interesting to me personally. I like that narrative beginning, middle and end.

01:21:13:13 - 01:21:33:25
Evan
okay. So there's a, for lack of a better term, more on real storytelling, right? Where the actions are going to happen and you have very little choice. Yeah. And then there's more kind of open ended. You can do it like a Bethesda game where you can choose to complete a quests or not. You can just off one of the quest givers and they just let you alter the story.

01:21:33:28 - 01:21:35:16
Evan
Yeah. And like a big way.

01:21:35:19 - 01:21:48:17
Wade
And that's a really interesting point. Nothing like I think that there's Bethesda games are very well made and all that kind of stuff, but for whatever reason, they don't connect with me quite the same way. so I but I think you're hitting on it.

01:21:48:20 - 01:22:06:22
Evan
Well, I had never really played like any of, like the Naughty Dog games that are more kind of cinematic and direct like that. And I think a lot of those games came out on like PlayStation and were PlayStation exclusives for such a long time that I actually played them for the first time with you, where I was like, oh, I've never played like an uncharted game.

01:22:06:22 - 01:22:13:15
Evan
And you gave me the classic, wait, what? It's like, how could this how can you.

01:22:13:15 - 01:22:13:28
Wade
Call yourself.

01:22:13:28 - 01:22:23:19
Evan
A game? Possible, right? Exactly. And I was like, wow, I don't know. I just I don't know because you're kind of fun, but it makes more sense now, doesn't it?

01:22:23:19 - 01:22:30:10
Wade
Doesn't it? It's like, you know, put put the Nathan Drake arc. It's not what I was expecting.

01:22:30:12 - 01:22:40:20
Evan
It's pretty similarly on rails. That's fair. Well, some of these games you couldn't really save either, so you had to learn how to make all the decisions to not die.

01:22:40:22 - 01:22:42:28
Wade
the, the good old days when.

01:22:42:28 - 01:22:43:12
Evan
Gamers.

01:22:43:17 - 01:22:45:29
Wade
Gamers.

01:22:46:01 - 01:22:49:02
Evan
Were resiliency was forced upon us.

01:22:49:05 - 01:22:50:17
Wade
That dog don't hunt.

01:22:50:19 - 01:23:01:15
Evan
Yeah. Thank you. Ryder. It's nice nice for you to me this is revisiting back these. Yeah. This is a callback. It's a good callback. We got Ryder's return, Ryder's return.

01:23:01:16 - 01:23:03:14
Wade
And there's a lot of alliteration.

01:23:03:16 - 01:23:09:10
Evan
Ryder's return. Parentheses. Requiem 16. Now it's the Final Fantasy game.

01:23:09:12 - 01:23:12:15
Wade
To 352 over 28. Fractions.

01:23:12:15 - 01:23:23:09
Evan
Kingdom hearts I was just felt like I just didn't understand. It was something in like the Japanese that I didn't understand. And that's why we had these naming conventions. That's kind of. And then I found out it's not.

01:23:23:12 - 01:23:24:04
Wade
It's not it.

01:23:24:04 - 01:23:25:16
Evan
Just it's just a deliberate choice.

01:23:25:21 - 01:23:29:05
Wade
Now, with those 67, there are some we won't get into that. But yeah.

01:23:29:06 - 01:23:30:10
Evan
No we can't talk about it.

01:23:30:14 - 01:23:50:11
Wade
Well okay. So did you know that after Final Fantasy seven was created, they had some naming conventions for what's called the compilation. They wanted to, like, continue the story of Final Fantasy seven. And so they said, we've got this new compilation coming out. We're going to have a movie called Advent Children. We're going to have a mobile game called Before Crisis.

01:23:50:11 - 01:24:07:05
Wade
We're going to have a PSP prequel called Crisis Core. Notice the naming convention AC, b c c c there was a sequel game called Dirge of Cerberus. Now there's a mobile game called Ever Crisis.

01:24:07:08 - 01:24:09:25
Evan
So I saw Advent Children. I watched that one.

01:24:09:25 - 01:24:14:16
Wade
And have you seen Late Edition or have you seen like the original edition?

01:24:14:18 - 01:24:16:05
Evan
I don't know, a lot of motorcycles.

01:24:16:08 - 01:24:19:07
Wade
Yeah, that's all you need to know.

01:24:19:09 - 01:24:22:02
Evan
And then they made the other game. What is it? Spirits within.

01:24:22:05 - 01:24:24:21
Wade
that's not a yeah. That like.

01:24:24:22 - 01:24:41:27
Evan
I remember, I think so, yeah. We're so excited to go see that. My friends and I all got together and went and saw that in theaters, and we were like. Like the graphics, the hair. Yeah. But then we were also like, I took a day. What was it? Stop it.

01:24:42:00 - 01:24:45:17
Wade
Was it was was the last.

01:24:45:20 - 01:24:47:01
Evan
Into Final Fantasy.

01:24:47:01 - 01:24:52:21
Wade
Oh, I was like 15 years old, 16 years old. And I was like, stop it.

01:24:52:21 - 01:24:57:02
Evan
You did not, did first, first date.

01:24:57:04 - 01:24:58:17
Wade
First and last.

01:24:58:20 - 01:25:02:20
Evan
You went on a first date and you were like, this is going to be great. And you're like into it. Like, no.

01:25:02:23 - 01:25:09:10
Wade
I mean, you know, we've been friends. So like my personality, you said known.

01:25:09:12 - 01:25:12:27
Evan
You said, now I want to take you on this date and reveal my true.

01:25:12:27 - 01:25:18:03
Wade
Self, true self. And then I morphed.

01:25:18:05 - 01:25:20:07
Wade
That dog dog hunt.

01:25:20:09 - 01:25:24:14
Evan
So I'm seeing whether. Did you like to go to dinner afterwards and try and talk to you.

01:25:24:14 - 01:25:26:17
Wade
Tried to process try to process it.

01:25:26:23 - 01:25:31:28
Evan
So you're unrefined what you do now. You tried to do with a date at 15.

01:25:32:03 - 01:25:43:24
Wade
With no knowledge and no experience. And just like I like Final Fantasy, Ming-Na is a great actress. Alec Baldwin is in that movie. Also, Roz from Frasier is a voice actor in that movie.

01:25:43:26 - 01:25:50:18
Evan
I'm pretty sure there's pretty sure there's a meme of like, someone just explaining something to somebody who's not. Gary about it. That would be.

01:25:50:21 - 01:25:55:17
Wade
That's like literally every moment of my life, trying to explain things to people that don't.

01:25:55:17 - 01:26:07:25
Evan
Care about that. And then I think so, like you grew up in the age of the internet. We both are barely taking advantage of people.

01:26:07:25 - 01:26:32:03
Evan
Okay, everybody, we are in our final segment of the episode, which, as always, is our gains before a games segment. It's our games before games, which is an activity that us with his class to help them process things that they gain in their lives. In four domains we have physical, emotional, spiritual and social.

01:26:32:05 - 01:26:44:06
Evan
And so it helps us to process what we're doing and make it actionable. So it's always going to kind of end up most of the time in a challenge. Always going to end up most of the time is a very strong statement that I just made. There.

01:26:44:09 - 01:26:48:09
Wade
And that really is I mean, that's a lofty, lofty goal.

01:26:48:11 - 01:26:59:22
Evan
So, for the, emotional domain here, how do you typically encourage and describe that for people as they kind of process and get their games before their games?

01:26:59:22 - 01:27:24:17
Wade
Yeah. So we're we're emotional creatures and everything that we do. results from some of the things that are going on inside exterior oftentime reflects interior. And so what we're always trying to do is to do a pulse check of how are my emotions and stuff. there are four pillars of emotional intelligence that would include self-awareness, self-regulation, empathy, and social skills.

01:27:24:17 - 01:27:51:19
Wade
And so the question for us is, how am I operating in the world? Which bucket of emotionality my operating out of? sidenote last night I watched Inside Out. Okay. And, I think, I think in terms of emotional intelligence and thinking about our emotional health, it's the question of who's been driving lately, who's been at the the control panel.

01:27:51:22 - 01:28:13:04
Wade
so is it sadness? Is joy. Is it anger? disgust? Any of these things? so, yeah, we just try to process that a little bit and then set some self-regulation goals for ourselves. And that does begin with self-awareness, you know, who's at the helm and who do I want to be at the helm?

01:28:13:06 - 01:28:45:21
Evan
Yeah. Well, based on our conversation in this episode, I was thinking about the experiences that I have, and I was playing a game, and it made me think about some things that were deeper outside. It was the dealing with the kind of the topic of addiction in the game and in a really creative way. And it made me think about, you know, families that go through addiction and what like addiction looks like in our own lives and what those tendencies can be.

01:28:45:24 - 01:29:01:12
Evan
but I just had this moment where all I did was kind of think about it, and then it just kind of was, and so I had this moment of clarity or like this lens that I was like, looking through that it kind of unlocked a way to think about things in a different way, because I had just experienced it.

01:29:01:14 - 01:29:28:10
Evan
But I don't have a tendency to document or make those things more permanent. Like I just like to sit and ponder and I think I'm trying this year to daydream a little less and like, daydream in a way that inspires me to make things more permanent. And I just it gets all jumbled up in my brain. So I think, yeah, I think that was a I am it moved me that, that moment that I had.

01:29:28:12 - 01:29:47:18
Evan
And so I think my challenge in the emotional domain, based on kind of what we talked about this episode, is to just try and make those things live somewhere, not just in my own brain. So, writing some things down, even if they're just unfounded thoughts. I don't like to let things out until I. Yeah, kind of figure it out.

01:29:47:18 - 01:29:49:28
Evan
And as a verbal processor, that makes that a little tricky.

01:29:49:28 - 01:30:22:25
Wade
So yeah. Yeah. What about you? That's fair. Yeah. So I've been playing lives of P lately, and, that is a brutally difficult and gruesome game at times. but you're playing is Pinocchio, and there's a moment in the game where you get, this this, substance or aura called ergo. Okay. But essentially it's your humanity. And how how much of a human you are versus how much of a puppet you are.

01:30:23:02 - 01:30:46:21
Wade
And it really gets me thinking. I began as like this killing sort of machine going around, and I'm like just a puppet of Jupiter's, right. But you begin to gain agency, autonomy and all this kind of stuff, and it makes me wonder how much of my life I'm just kind of going on the rails as a puppet of the systems in which I live, versus the humanity of emotion.

01:30:46:21 - 01:30:55:15
Wade
How am I getting in touch with that humanity? You didn't did you expect that turn, did you? I mean, it was a it was a left turn. Their behavior.

01:30:55:18 - 01:30:56:16
Evan
But you know what I'm saying?

01:30:56:16 - 01:31:15:15
Wade
Like, I know what you're really saying. It really did hit me of like, am I going through the motions? and there's a sense of responsibility. So think back to the inside out sort of thing of responsibilities at the helm, you know, and that's like an emotion that I've got a loyalty duty sort of thing. But where is joy?

01:31:15:15 - 01:31:26:25
Wade
Where is, relationality in all of that? I don't want to go through, I don't want to go through life like a level I want to I want to live it, you know?

01:31:26:27 - 01:31:29:02
Evan
So, that.

01:31:29:03 - 01:31:30:20
Wade
Some banger quotes today.

01:31:30:23 - 01:31:49:27
Evan
That. Thanks for thanks for sharing that, listener for you then in that emotional domain, what do you want that to look like for you this week? What have you experienced recently and what are you walking into? that, you know, it would, what's a good challenge for you? That would be you'd be well served by thinking about some of these things in that emotional domain.

01:31:50:00 - 01:32:08:19
Evan
Maybe it's just jotting some things down, like me. Maybe it's questioning the entire system. And if our, life and divisive responsibilities have put our lives on rails, and if we're experiencing the humanity that we want or could experience, and maybe that the systems that exist in our lives and the things that are pulling us down or holding us back from what it truly means to be human like Wade.

01:32:08:24 - 01:32:19:04
Evan
Or you can write something down. Okay, so we had a great time. Thanks. Good luck to you and enjoy your, hopeful new emotional availability to yourself and others.

01:32:21:07 - 01:32:43:01
Speaker 1
All right, everyone, thanks for tuning in. Join us next time when we find out who killed Wade's childhood in the start of our true crime series, and we finish up our series on character creators. Big thanks to sing for D, laughter for the use of the music. It's awesome. We appreciate it. Check out their stuff on YouTube. And thanks again to Nick Smith who designed our graphics.

01:32:43:07 - 01:32:52:21
Speaker 1
We hope that you have enjoyed this show and we look forward to seeing you next week. Bye everybody! Have a fantastic time.

01:32:59:12 - 01:33:10:08
Unknown
Oh.

01:33:10:11 - 01:33:19:03
Unknown
You.