From Touring Prisons to Writing Final Fantasy Books: Interview with MJ Gallagher | PNWS Ep. 6
00:00:05:03 - 00:00:24:00
Wade
Hey, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Prof weekly show. And today we are so excited to be joined by M J Gallagher, author of so many books of, exploring Final Fantasy lore, Final fantasy seven I. In fact, I've got a couple of the books right here.
00:00:24:02 - 00:00:24:08
Evan
we've.
00:00:24:08 - 00:00:33:00
Wade
Got the new, Norse myths that inspired Final Fantasy seven, and we've got the Greek myths that inspired Final Fantasy seven.
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MJ
And I brought a copy as well just to, yes, twins. I even have a really
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MJ
up to date of
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MJ
it.
00:00:43:13 - 00:00:57:15
Wade
And I should say that that part of the excitement of, of having MJ on today is the upcoming very anticipated release of mythos. Now, do you say mythos or Mythos? How do you do it?
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MJ
usually when I say, I say mythos, I'm also very, very excited to. Every time I do get to see mythos, I usually slip into, yeah, you know, our new ethos.
00:01:09:22 - 00:01:12:00
Wade
Is that you gotta draw it out, you know.
00:01:12:00 - 00:01:13:16
Evan
Ideally chew on it.
00:01:13:19 - 00:01:36:18
Wade
Really let the people enjoy it. And so we're really, really excited about the upcoming, book mythos, which is an exploration of Final Fantasy 16, cycles of life and death and rebirth, which is really, really cool. I've even got my Phoenix my Joshua shirt on today to celebrate and commemorate the day. MJ, how are you?
00:01:36:20 - 00:01:55:23
MJ
I'm very well, thank you. first of all, thank you so, so much for having me on the show. Hugely, hugely. Appreciate it. you know, I've, I've been dipping it in a lot of the past episodes that usually so far, it's just so entertaining. And I've, I've really enjoyed listening to you guys and your different perspectives on things.
00:01:55:25 - 00:02:19:27
MJ
and more recently, just as part of my re familiarizing myself with certain elements of Final Fantasy 16, I went back and listened to your, previous show together. Right? Yeah. that we did for the echoes of the fallen DLC. I sort of blew my mind all over again. just a conversation. it was such.
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Wade
A good conversation. I go back to that again and again. It is so good.
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MJ
So, I'm, you know, I just absolutely adore talking about Final Fantasy Sane Fantasy seven and 16 in particular. And I am thrilled to be here. So thank you. Thank you for having me.
00:02:37:19 - 00:03:01:02
Wade
Yeah. Well, we we are delighted we're going to get into it. We've got a lot of things that we want to cover. We especially want to, let everybody in the, the listening audience know that you can still preorder Final Fantasy 16 mythos. by mg MJ Gallagher. join the Kickstarter. We'll have all the links in the comments in the show notes below.
00:03:01:02 - 00:03:04:15
Wade
But, it's been a pretty successful Kickstarter, hasn't it?
00:03:04:18 - 00:03:28:18
MJ
has I've been so, so lucky. this is the second Kickstarter that I've, I've run and, you know, in advance, you know, I was really quite apprehensive about how it's going to go. You can gauge, you know, audience levels. so that's one, we, we managed to hit the target within just, just under 15 minutes, which was sensational.
00:03:28:21 - 00:03:55:04
MJ
and, you know, as of today, we're, we're setting at some 650% funded, stories, you know, is is one of the biggest parts on the bike you can ever hope to receive as a content creator. You know, just that people are not only willing to consume, the content that you're putting out there, but that, you know, upfront there that are willing to put their money down.
00:03:55:06 - 00:04:22:20
MJ
Yeah. so I'm, I'm so grateful to everyone on this bikes, including yourself with, and I'm just touched that people are interested and the things that I've got to say, you know, fame, fantasy and mythology are just two of the biggest passions in my, my life. Yeah. so having the opportunity to, to sort of set and write them down and help to enrich other people's experience and all of these games is just a dream come true for me.
00:04:22:20 - 00:04:27:00
MJ
So, yeah. I'm just I'm so grateful to be in this position.
00:04:27:02 - 00:04:49:11
Wade
Well, let me, let me tell you, like, the information is is so good in these books, but you carry it the way that you're able to articulate the way that you are able to interact with people that are interested, whether it's on social media or in interviews like this. You just people invest and believe in the books because they invest and believe in you.
00:04:49:11 - 00:04:58:07
Wade
And it has been a delight to get to know you over these last couple of years, and I'm just excited to get into it again today. So thank you for being here.
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MJ
Extraordinarily kindly to say I really appreciate that. Thank you.
00:05:01:14 - 00:05:07:21
Wade
Well, let's get into it a little bit. we want to know a little bit about the writer behind the writing.
00:05:07:24 - 00:05:21:21
Wade
We would love to know kind of your own origin story and I guess a gaming origin story. What was the first game that really, like captivated you? The one that you got lost in?
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MJ
weirdly enough, the first time I sort of grew up in the era where, you know, when I was really starting to notice video games, you know, actively want to play video games. It was like the Sega megadrive or the, the, the Snes, or you guys called it the Super Nintendo as well, didn't you?
00:05:41:18 - 00:05:46:11
Wade
Yeah. Super Nintendo Snes has become like the colloquial thing that. Yeah.
00:05:46:13 - 00:06:13:16
MJ
Built. so that that was the kind of generation where when I was, a kid, those were the big things, you know, and, it was like Sonic the Hedgehog two was the first game I ever owned. and just it was so exciting, you know, just just being able to to sort of move at that speed, and I, I loved, you know, like Mario three or, Super Mario World with the Yoshi, you know, things like that.
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MJ
But then my, my kind of early experience of gaming was like platformers like that, maybe moving on to, like, sports games, soccer games or crash Bandicoot thing. the first time that I ever experienced that game, that really made me sit up and realize that this medium was different to just, you know, sit down for half an hour and, and mess around and that it, you know, you could you didn't have to think about it after that kind of thing.
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MJ
But for the first time ever got to a game that that to me was actually Final Fantasy seven. came along I when when the game released in the UK, I had just turned 12 and I had a brief shot of it, ran a boot Christmas time at the when it launched, but the only game for maybe another six months.
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MJ
But by this point, you know, I'd taken an interest. I'd never seen anything remotely like it. You know, always know how the breathtaking the visuals, where the storytelling, how profound an impact it had on I was growing up to tell you guys about that. But, you know, some of the stories that you've shared in the past, you know, I totally resonate with that.
00:07:31:05 - 00:08:16:13
MJ
That's that's how it impacted me. And even today, you know, some of my philosophies on life are quite, in sync with that game. You know, my, my views on environmentalism, capitalism, spiritualism, it's it's I think a lot of it was heavily influenced by Final Fantasy seven and to a lesser extent, Final Fantasy eight as well. so not only, you know, as, as an adult and sort of what I do, and my sort of creative life now was heavily influenced by Final Fantasy seven, but my, my actual broader play to be, you know, how I want to go about living my life, how I view the world.
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Wade
You know, it's like.
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MJ
Quite nicely tied in that's that's how profound that impact that had on me.
00:08:21:15 - 00:08:40:28
Wade
And it it clearly continues to, I mean, from, from 1997 to today, you've written, Norse myths now, Greek myths on Final Fantasy seven. You also, tell me about the Noble Holm incident. That's another book that you wrote, contributed to. Tell me a little bit about that. I actually don't know much about it.
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MJ
Okay, so, when, when I was, can I, as I can say to yourself, my my dad is, or was a math teacher. he's he's retired now. and I just had sort of one of those means I've always had a very kind of logic based brain. So growing up, that was the sort of, and, you know, that I felt most comfortable in, no.
00:09:08:06 - 00:09:46:02
MJ
Not writing. No. Can, mortality analysis, things like that, that was that was outside of what I was comfortable with. and when I was about 15, I, as part of a homework, homework assignment when they decided to, to actually write down what I was playing, which happened to be the the Rocket Doom scenario and Final Fantasy seven, and just, just sort of, you know, wrote down meeting, said the dialog there, the sort of the, the emotions that were going on, and sort of handled that another piece of homework and realized that I really enjoyed it.
00:09:46:04 - 00:10:26:13
MJ
so, I ended up going back and, and actually putting together like a really, I want to say rough it. I mean, it was it was worse than rough. It was handwritten. I actually recently found the original 100th anniversary. but, yeah, it was a handwritten, notarized version of Final Fantasy seven. and over the years, they just sort of put it together and put it together and eventually, you know, shared some of it online and it got a bit of interest and so I converted it into a couple of sort of faithful, just fan fiction novels, just, yeah.
00:10:26:16 - 00:10:49:23
MJ
right about the time of publishing the second volume, which goes up to Cosmo Canyon. I go, kind of start again getting to know the, the organizers of KubeCon a little bit better. and they invited me along to the first UK event. because.
00:10:50:00 - 00:11:01:05
Wade
So just real quick for everybody listening, Super con is essentially a Final Fantasy fan convention. just, in the, in the UK, right. is that where it's based or is it.
00:11:01:08 - 00:11:37:19
MJ
It's the, the organizers of lead organizers actually based in Canada. okay. The events typically go between North America and the UK. Okay. they are looking to sort of spread out to, to, go to Australia and things like that. But the, the, the events so far have been kind. The US and UK. Okay specifically, but the when, when we, we first started speaking, what we wanted to do is have gift items available for like VIP ticket holders.
00:11:37:22 - 00:11:51:05
MJ
And so they decided that we're going to give away 100 copies of my first novel, my first fantasy seven, novelization, and have me on site to sign these things, you know, and for, for me, that was that was the biggest thing that ever happened.
00:11:51:05 - 00:11:52:18
Wade
Can oh my gosh. Yeah.
00:11:52:18 - 00:12:25:28
MJ
So I was I was so excited about that. and that was going back to 2016 I think that was on the following event in the UK, we did the same thing for my second, volume and my novelization. and afterwards we sort of had a conversation and thought, you know what? Rather, rather than focus on what I'd already produced, why not create something exclusively for the convention, which is how the incident into existence.
00:12:26:00 - 00:12:52:25
MJ
So, I, I took, a chunk of the Final Fantasy seven novelization I had already written and then expanded on it, to basically put together a kind of, coherent version or a coherent retelling of the novel humans, because those of us familiar with the completion will know that there's not actually one standard version of it.
00:12:52:28 - 00:13:11:23
MJ
You know, the version from the original game is different to Crisis Core, which is different to the full crisis. And there's a lot of pieces of lost order in there and and so on and so forth. So what I did was take as much information from the various titles as I could and put it together in one, one story.
00:13:11:25 - 00:13:38:18
MJ
and I had, a good friend of Mina, an Australian artist known as Crimson Sun, comes and sends, the the can of no more. So for like, comic book style so and they, they provided then seeded artwork for it as well. we produced it for a couple and and it, it just took off, you know, it was really, really well received.
00:13:38:20 - 00:14:09:09
MJ
I eventually kind of won awards for it, within the Final Fantasy community. just as a sort of content creator piece, on the following year ended up coauthoring a Final Fantasy eight novel, with an American author called Michael Rodney. And by that point, you know, I was it released four different books. Yeah, I had been kind of working on a couple other projects, and it was it was just a labor of love.
00:14:09:12 - 00:14:50:05
MJ
And I got to do some, some amazing things, you know, be taken over to, to New York, go over to Toronto to do signings and special guest events and stuff like that. and I realized that, you know, this is this is actually something that I really want to progress and see what I can take it. And that that was kind of weird when when I decided that I was going to sort of look at something that I could produce that could maybe look at things from a different angle, that could maybe help educate others, you know, rather than just the sort of section perspective, that's within the mythology books.
00:14:50:05 - 00:14:52:20
MJ
So I comment existence.
00:14:52:22 - 00:15:17:16
Evan
Could you talk a little bit about what it was like to transition from writing for fun and because you loved it, and because it was something that you just liked to starting to have it featured at, like a conference, and then creating a product that you can sell, like, was there a switch that flipped? Was there a moment where you thought, wow, I could I could actually do this, and this could be a big part of kind of what I do in my future.
00:15:17:18 - 00:15:28:25
Evan
We have a lot of listeners who love to create and write and so that's a big emphasis. The some of the stuff that we talk about, what was that process like for you internally?
00:15:28:28 - 00:15:59:18
MJ
it was pretty mind blowing. And even though even, you know, almost a decade later, I still have to pinch myself that this is this is even happened or tends to happen. I think, I mean, I'm just really excited. And, you know, I never ceases to amaze me that people are interested in what I do because I, my, my, my secret has always been to write the things that I want to write about and things that I enjoy doing, and if there's an audience for it, then fantastic.
00:15:59:18 - 00:16:32:26
MJ
And if not, then I had fun while I was doing it. Cool. and I think that's probably true for a lot of content creation. The, I think so many people worry about what their audience is looking for, rather than creating what they're passionate about. And the audience allowing the audience to come to them because of that passion, because of that enthusiasm, because of that level of expertise and whichever niche corner that they, they want to to sort of carve out for themselves.
00:16:32:28 - 00:17:01:13
MJ
So to when, when it first really got going, I was just incredibly excited, incredibly grateful to be invited to something that, where my, my books were. I'd already made them available sort of publicly. The, the, the novelizations stuff was not something that was ever made. It was never sold. That was always something that was just sort of made available for download or.
00:17:01:16 - 00:17:29:03
MJ
Yeah, if individuals wanted to print it themselves, just give them the files and they could go off and that sort of thing. So there was there was no sort of financial gain in it, which I was perfectly happy with. I just really kind of liked that other people were reading what I was producing. Yeah. Of course. but the first event, can I change that a little bit where I there's no can I put face to face with the people that that were reading my book?
00:17:29:03 - 00:18:06:03
MJ
And it wasn't it wasn't just a case of sort of handing over the book and saying, you know, I hope you enjoy it. You know, it turned out that quite a lot of them already had, online because it had been available for a while. So, you know, I could, I could have conversations about, you know, how the who they enjoyed it was, you know, if there was any critics that had, you know, so just to be able to, to speak to someone and how was can a face to face conversation with someone who had already consumed your work and received it well and was praising you for it?
00:18:06:03 - 00:18:20:22
MJ
That was, you know, that was kind of new to me. but I really enjoyed that. And while while this was going on, you know, sitting next to actors from, Final Fantasy 15, like, we had three cheeses.
00:18:20:22 - 00:18:21:00
Wade
Oh my.
00:18:21:00 - 00:18:23:11
MJ
Gosh, Noctis and,
00:18:23:14 - 00:18:23:27
Wade
Dream.
00:18:24:00 - 00:18:39:04
MJ
Reviews and liberties and John Cumming, who plays King, which is as well, and King's Glaive. So the four of us together were you know, for me, it was really bizarre being on that side of the table.
00:18:39:07 - 00:18:43:01
Wade
And, and liberties, did the audiobook for Was It Greek Myths?
00:18:43:08 - 00:18:46:27
MJ
Yes. We actually did the audiobook for the Blame Incident as well.
00:18:47:03 - 00:18:48:19
Wade
Oh, okay, I didn't realize. Nice.
00:18:48:19 - 00:19:20:07
MJ
Yeah. So that was, that was produced through book one. so Liam and I, you know, as a result of sort, being part of the scene for, for several years, he and I became pretty good friends, which is, which is where that that came from. and I think having having had a taste of that, even just for one day, you know, gave me the encouragement to go over and do something different.
00:19:20:07 - 00:19:50:16
MJ
And, you know, every time we did it, you know, if we, if we released, that we've been able Raymond Stone, for example, that that was something totally different or going, you know, international and, you know, presenting the book and Toronto presenting the book in a New York like, it's a totally different environment. And just to to sort of feel like, feel like a minor celebrity for a day, you know, like, you know, it gives, gives the old ego, you know?
00:19:50:17 - 00:20:11:17
MJ
Yeah. Nice. A nice little boost. and I think, I think that's, that's what wanted to really go back. And I realize we've got another example here. But to answer your question, I think that was it to actually get that acknowledgment face to face. the statement of all that, is, is what is what really kind of prompted me to, to move forward.
00:20:11:19 - 00:20:29:20
Evan
But sounds like you took a lot of little steps that were things that you wanted to do along the way, and it just kind of gradually built into bigger and bigger opportunities. As I would imagine. Your skills kind of developed at the same time as you built relationships. And I think that's everybody's looking for that moment a lot of the time.
00:20:29:20 - 00:20:50:28
Evan
But the consistent work, pursuing things that you are passionate about and have a skill set for, sounds like a really great encouragement for those who are doing that. Now, I know that you've said that you were a writer before. You were. I mean, make sure I get this right. A cultural and historical tour writer, which you said has kind of contributed to your appreciation and interest in mythologies.
00:20:51:02 - 00:21:08:18
Evan
I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what that is, and, and, and, and as we kind of transition into some of your work here with this new book that's coming out and Final Fantasy 16, so what is a cultural and historical to a writer? What on earth did you do, and how did it contribute to this newest project that you have coming up?
00:21:08:20 - 00:21:28:29
MJ
So you so I, I'm obviously from, from Scotland. but when I was in my mid 20s, I decided to sort of travel around the world for a while and I settled down and, believe it or not, it was, a haunted present, sort of a tourist attraction. Haunted. What?
00:21:28:29 - 00:21:35:07
Evan
Just time out time. Okay. An allegedly haunted prison. Or you can confirm that this.
00:21:35:14 - 00:21:37:18
Wade
Do you have any stories?
00:21:37:18 - 00:21:50:01
MJ
So I, I do not personally have any stories. Okay, well, I can you can tell that my, my bedroom at the prison has featured on ghost Hunter international.
00:21:50:03 - 00:21:54:06
Evan
Okay. Now, a bedroom or so. Now, that was a cell.
00:21:54:09 - 00:21:55:13
Wade
You know, a prison.
00:21:55:13 - 00:21:56:12
Evan
Cell.
00:21:56:15 - 00:22:18:04
MJ
Yeah. So it was, it was the present itself. It had closed maybe 15 years earlier, but it was a heritage building, so it was kept open, as a tourist attraction. so the the staff that worked onsite, most of them were backpackers and Go Ape and ghosts. Yeah. Well, funny you should say that. There was actually a graveyard.
00:22:18:04 - 00:22:21:08
MJ
They saved my bedroom time. But the.
00:22:21:11 - 00:22:23:03
Wade
This law that we're dropping.
00:22:23:03 - 00:23:04:29
MJ
Right now, like, so, the the the backpackers can come and maybe stay for six weeks, a couple months, etc.. and it was just work for your accommodation for some people would claim some people would work in the reception, others would be guides. So the tour guides aspect is what I went to the and I showed up on the first day and it turned out that the couple who owned the tourist attraction at the prison, the the the husband, it was, you know, quite high up in the the Maori Council's, really well respected family.
00:23:04:29 - 00:23:42:18
MJ
And his wife was from Glasgow as well, which is Glasgow being my home city. So, she and I just had to off immediately. And, you know, after the conversation, I sort of told her that I'd been writing for years and years on the kind of Final Fantasy stuff. so she offered me a position of, rather than continuing to be a tour guide at the prison, would I be interested in, one other business, which was, basically like an audio tour for cruise ship passengers.
00:23:42:18 - 00:24:04:25
MJ
So on the cruise ship, they did purchase the MP3 device. Yeah. they would get off the ship and sort of walk around with a little mop and, you know, listening to the history of the location or the history of a, you know, a building or a landmark or, particular area well within walking distance of, you know, either the harbor or the drop off point.
00:24:04:28 - 00:24:17:11
MJ
So my job was to visit the locations to learn about the locations, to then write the tours and oversee the production of them.
00:24:17:14 - 00:24:18:14
Evan
That is so cool.
00:24:18:17 - 00:24:24:00
Wade
This is the coolest, like, origin story I've ever heard. Like, oh my gosh.
00:24:24:03 - 00:24:49:10
MJ
So you know, was that was yeah, that was my job for, for a number of years. I got to travel around New Zealand, the east coast of Australia, all over the U.S. Oh my gosh. So British Columbia there, all of the Mediterranean, all over the Baltic. yeah. So I, I had quite an exciting job for, for a while.
00:24:49:12 - 00:25:13:17
MJ
and one of the, one of the really interesting things about it is just the format of the tours was, you know, we we or I would Calvino would learn about the region itself and, the history of the region and the history of the indigenous people. The and then, you know, the same thing about particular landmarks and also would find something that was, you know.
00:25:13:19 - 00:25:44:27
MJ
Something that represented the indigenous has to do something that perhaps was represented. What? Ehm, something that represented, you know, urban legends or something that represented, sort of important local figures and stuff like that and just sort of interweave all the stories together. and it was through this that I started to, get a real appreciation for, local cultures all over the world, I am sure.
00:25:44:29 - 00:26:11:22
MJ
And, you know, the, the folk, the folklore, the the mythology that that sort of came with, some of the, the, the older, the cultures that I had been there, you know, in ancient times are, you know, it still there and, you know, the uncertainties were still still around. that absolutely fascinated me. a bit of of two things that fascinated me even more about that.
00:26:11:22 - 00:26:19:24
MJ
The first was how closely you could compare them. And that was my first real introduction to the field of comparative mythology.
00:26:19:27 - 00:26:20:06
Wade
You know?
00:26:20:12 - 00:26:42:02
MJ
And the second was how many things I recognized from world mythology that I had already found in Final Fantasy. and that that was always in the back of my mind of, you know, I recognize these things. I, you know, this gives me a greater appreciation for the games that I've played before.
00:26:42:04 - 00:26:43:14
Wade
And,
00:26:43:17 - 00:27:03:14
MJ
And eventually it kind of just started. I just had this real, desire this this need, to, to kind of share that with others and started writing blog posts about it. and eventually I had so much, content available that, I thought, okay, I'm just going to stick it in a book.
00:27:03:16 - 00:27:13:00
Evan
Yeah, that's so good. Now, just real quickly, very briefly, what is comparative mythology like in 1 or 2 sentences? Just sure. It's not for me. Definitely not for me.
00:27:13:02 - 00:27:50:28
MJ
Comparative mythology is the recognition that there are archetypes, or similar character types, similar tales that appear and which are kind of universal to the human experience. So while you may find, you know, perhaps the most obvious one is the chaos story, which is all about, kind of cult hero or, quite often a storm gods taking on, monster that represents chaos, quite often in a sort of self-contained form.
00:27:51:01 - 00:28:14:04
MJ
and you see this on various different, mythologies, perhaps, in Norse mythology, you see that through Thor and your Menander. in Greek mythology, you see it in the tale of Zeus versus Typhon. and, you know, it goes on and on and on and on. So you basically, you see similar tales play out, you know, the, the, the characters are different.
00:28:14:04 - 00:28:20:24
MJ
The, the, the details are different, but they are the same universal myth. The apartment again across.
00:28:20:25 - 00:28:44:27
Wade
And to to that same to that same point. even like in Hebrew mythology, early Christian mythology, Mesopotamian Babylonian chaos comp is broad reaching since the beginning of time. And so these kind of archetypal mythologies that you're talking about, they are everywhere. And we find them certainly in Final Fantasy, which is phenomenal. thanks for that explanation.
00:28:45:04 - 00:28:50:09
Evan
That's a perfect you guys are just like flies to the trap.
00:28:50:09 - 00:28:51:14
Wade
For we are.
00:28:51:16 - 00:29:07:10
Evan
Final fantasy is perfect for you guys. Then. well, wait, I know you have a lot of questions about the new book and how relates to Final Fantasy 16. and so I'm going to find out everything I can about this ghost prison off line. But I like it.
00:29:07:12 - 00:29:44:15
Wade
Absolutely. So, you know, I think that that story, your origin story of how you got to to where you are and became who you are, who how you became MJ Gallagher of Final Fantasy seven. book fame. Right. this says so much about your process because it strikes me that as you're talking, you were already kind of like a, a, cultural, archeologist, deep diving in cultures that you were already seeing helping people experience the tours as their guide.
00:29:44:17 - 00:29:58:28
Wade
and now you're doing this with video games as well. Shifting gears to Final Fantasy 16, you didn't set out when you began Final Fantasy 16 to write a book about it, correct. Like you certainly maybe, I thought.
00:29:58:28 - 00:30:28:10
MJ
But yeah, I don't I certainly wouldn't say that I definitively set out. But by that point, I was nearing the completion of my Greek, Maths and Fantasy seven book, and knew that there was a real possibility that if Final Fantasy 16 was heavy on mythology, that might be something I would consider doing. And by the end of the demo, I knew, you know.
00:30:28:12 - 00:30:28:28
MJ
Yeah.
00:30:29:00 - 00:30:30:13
Evan
Yeah. You didn't.
00:30:30:13 - 00:30:32:23
Wade
Yeah, it's a good demo.
00:30:32:24 - 00:30:37:16
MJ
It's a good. So sword etching content. Yeah.
00:30:37:19 - 00:31:08:06
Wade
So you're playing through 16 for the first time and you're visiting all of these places. You're you're meeting these, these kind of priestly summoner archetypes that are becoming these divine beings. What was a moment that you said, oh, we have got something here. Maybe it wasn't the demo, but when were you like, oh, this is this is a major work that I'm I'm willing to step into.
00:31:13:02 - 00:31:38:08
MJ
The place. The place that I am and and I'm, you know, how hard I am being genuine. That was the by the end of the demo, I knew it was going to be something, but the place that I recognized that there was, there was almost certainly going to be at least one book sponsored content here it was. By the time we get to lost Win.
00:31:38:10 - 00:32:06:12
MJ
So really, really early in the game. and the reason for that is because I've been writing my, my Greek mythology book, you know, I was already had one of the chapters in that book is dedicated to the Phoenix, the sort of Phoenix materia that appears in Final Fantasy seven and Crisis Core. and the, I'll try and keep this brief.
00:32:06:12 - 00:32:57:09
MJ
Right. So basically, the 2 to 2 things that I knew for absolute certain I was going to be looking at, the first one was the Phoenix, the second one was Dionysus. on the phoenix itself, is while it is quite often associated with, Greek mythology, it's not necessarily, Greek. In order to, you know, historians believe it derives from the ancient Egyptian mass or the Bennu, but, which was one of the the first being to exist and, the Helios was a version of the creation myth, which the bane of gods is a kind of Phoenix Lake being that is closely associated with sort of being a,
00:32:57:12 - 00:33:05:03
MJ
bringer of life. but, you know, that's that's where an image comes from. And Final Fantasy 16.
00:33:05:06 - 00:33:26:22
Wade
and for our Final Fantasy 14 followers and fans, when you were in the binding coil of Bahamut Fighting Phoenix, some of the ads, the additional enemies that show up are the Bino, the bean and birds. and this is a great mythological link for why that happens. I know that 14 is big right now, and, those playing Binding Coil, you'll see that.
00:33:26:25 - 00:33:57:11
MJ
absolutely. So, he the associating, associating the Phoenix with the banner part that brings us to Heliopolis and actually the, the, the original Phoenix mass that was written down in the sixth century BC. I actually very, very, very closely connects the Phoenix to Heliopolis, which was, the Greek name for, goodness me, of forgotten.
00:33:57:11 - 00:34:32:18
MJ
The name of the city bought it. That was basically about the sun god RA was worshiped. So Helios is the ancient Greek god for the sun. and the RA is iconic, within intergroup mythologies as being representative of the sun. But if you travel across the sky every day. And his son bought, one of the kind of core, points of worship for, for RA where obelisks and, you know, this kind of way, the obelisk ended up being used as a sundial created.
00:34:32:21 - 00:35:00:08
MJ
It was it was actually a, a sort of place of worship. And for the sun god. So Final Fantasy 16, obviously, you've got Joshua, you've got the Phoenix, the Phoenix Association, you know, with resurrection, you know, without even going to the sort of association with Jesus Christ and all that stuff. Yeah. when we get to the, the sort of waypoints and Final Fantasy 16, they're called obelisks, which connect to the sky.
00:35:00:11 - 00:35:27:03
MJ
this also in the context of a fallen airship. And this is we have to have a conversation about the airships that used to be in the sky. So the bigger context was unravels and unravels and unravels over the course of the game is how the phoenix and banner and obelisks and the sun boats, which is just the fallen airships going across the sky is, you know, you've you've got so much tied in together.
00:35:27:05 - 00:35:51:15
MJ
from the Dionysus mythology. Dionysus is one of the the sons of Zeus who became an Olympian eventually, he represents, overcoming death and so not not specifically rebirth, but actually conquering death. he is known as.
00:35:51:17 - 00:35:54:00
Evan
The the kind of the question of. Sorry.
00:35:54:01 - 00:35:54:20
MJ
Yeah. Sorry.
00:35:54:20 - 00:36:05:19
Evan
Yeah. What's the difference between rebirth and conquering death, like you said, that, in a, in a casual way. And I just wonder what you would say the distinction is in this mythological context.
00:36:05:21 - 00:36:08:25
MJ
Okay. so I had a fan of, that's my.
00:36:08:25 - 00:36:14:02
Evan
So my job is to do you you just you you just keep going. This is great.
00:36:14:05 - 00:36:51:28
MJ
Okay, so in an ancient Greece, there were two main, rites that were carried out of festivals that were carried out each year, with respect to the harvest. And the first one was the harvesting of grain not related to, Demeter and, safely, that the, the celebration of harvesting grain, as part of their ritual, they the kind of retold the myth of, Persephone being captured or kidnaped by Hades.
00:36:52:01 - 00:37:24:14
MJ
and Demeter, who is the goddess of the seasons, you know, basically just abandoned her post and went looking for, for for Stephanie. eventually, you know, the the crops were turned on. That was a kind of perpetual winter. And Zeus had to intervene and asked Hades to return Persephone. He, and finally he would return to the upper world for six months of the year and then go back to Hades for six months of the year and not single custody.
00:37:24:15 - 00:37:24:27
Evan
We have.
00:37:24:27 - 00:37:51:27
MJ
That. Yeah, it's so. So the cycle was when he would come out of the underworld. That would be spring, the flowers would bloom and, crops could be planted and would move into summer. And then eventually, he would return to the underworld. So the, the crops would be harvested, the the land would begin to weather would get into winter, and then the cycle would begin again.
00:37:52:00 - 00:38:37:18
MJ
So that process, that that continuous process of sort of birth, life, death, rebirth was very closely associated with the harvesting of crops. Every year. So when the myths associated with Dionysus came along, that was more to do with the harvesting of grapes. But the mass associated with that in ISIS was actually that he was able to, depending on which sort of mezcal you're talking about, the kind of the original one was that, he became so powerful that he descended to the underworld, collected the soul of his mother, and then took her to the upper world.
00:38:37:18 - 00:39:14:16
MJ
So he was he was able to overcome death in the underworld and take his mother up. But the point of that story was that where the very individuals who worship Demeter would believe in this cycle of life, of life, death and rebirth, they also believed and something, something close to reincarnation, where souls could go into the underworld and, relinquish their memories and then effectively be reborn.
00:39:14:16 - 00:39:47:23
MJ
And to some someone else, and the Dionysia. And the idea was that you would become so knowledgeable about, death and, and life that by the time you reached the, the underworld, you would know the secrets of how to have an eternal life or how to have a eternal afterlife. So the difference there was one was a cycle and one was an eternal afterlife, right?
00:39:47:23 - 00:39:59:00
MJ
Kind of thing. Which is where, the difference between rebirth and conquering death comes from. That's a really, really, really raw way of trying to describe this.
00:39:59:00 - 00:40:09:03
Evan
I think it's a great the abandonment of a cycle, and that the cycle is broken. And so there's something it's no longer that it kind of spins itself out. And yeah, I learned that from way.
00:40:09:05 - 00:40:43:05
MJ
So that's exactly what you just said is what Joshua and Clive represent. And Final Fantasy 16 is Clive is really closely associated with Dionysus. Even when the game opens, it opens on a location called the Knights of the New Moon. Nicaea is where Dionysus grew up, effectively, One of the nymphs that whipped after him on Nicaea was called Ambrosia, which is also the name of Clive's chocobo, which most people will look at that and see.
00:40:43:05 - 00:40:51:25
MJ
Well, the chocobo was called ambrosia. The Mughals called nectar, which was simply the fruit or the substance assistance of the gods. If you don't.
00:40:51:27 - 00:40:56:00
Evan
Those are the birds that they ride in the game. It's like an ostrich.
00:40:56:02 - 00:40:56:10
MJ
So?
00:40:56:12 - 00:41:02:26
Wade
So our audience does not play Final Fantasy. So the chocobos are big birds that they use as horses, right? Yeah.
00:41:02:28 - 00:41:09:10
Evan
It's cool. Just roll with it. Might I will say I just got my I just got mine and Final Fantasy 14.
00:41:09:10 - 00:41:10:22
Wade
14 for those who.
00:41:10:25 - 00:41:16:23
Evan
Believe I'm playing fantasy. And I named my bird Prof. Bock. This.
00:41:16:26 - 00:41:18:26
Wade
Oh my God, I didn't know.
00:41:18:26 - 00:41:19:28
MJ
That.
00:41:20:00 - 00:41:25:18
Evan
Yeah. So whenever I summon my mount I said come on prophetess, let's go. So wait, you're always with me when I'm doing.
00:41:25:22 - 00:41:46:14
Wade
I'm so delighted. I MJ, going back to what you were saying for a second. You know, as soon as lost, when you really do pick up on all of these things from Bennu. This, this, cycle of of rebirth, life and death and the airship and all of these Egyptian myths and all of this kind of stuff, these myths.
00:41:46:14 - 00:42:14:24
Wade
For anybody that's read them and studied them, you find them pretty compelling and you can see how they they crafted cultures in the past. My question to you, though, is maybe a bit more of a meta sort of question. And it's one asking, you know, it's just your opinion, right? Why do you think that the developers of Final Fantasy 16 are in some ways really rebirthing these myths?
00:42:14:26 - 00:42:24:14
Wade
in a new medium? Why is it important to tell these stories, for, for this generation through this medium?
00:42:24:17 - 00:43:08:06
MJ
I think it can goes back to the comparative mythology aspect of them that are universal myths. So the, the in our tales that, you know, as are the vast majority, the vast majority of humans are able to resonate with that aspect of of their circumstances and time or geography or what? and one of one of the most important things about comparative mythologies is that this, again, you know, across time in what we're not talking about, you know, a couple hundred years later and in some instances, we're talking about multiple millennia of difference.
00:43:08:08 - 00:43:54:19
MJ
and whole civilizations that have risen and fallen, but we can still see these continues, or the same sort of archetypes and same time, same themes that appear within all these, all these mass, all these cultures all over the world. I think the important thing about that is because they are so universal when when you're looking at a game series like Final Fantasy, which historically, certainly from Final Fantasy seven onwards, pre-fame fantasy seven, a lot of the mythological elements that appeared were actually derived from Dungeons and Dragons, but the change with Final Fantasy seven was that the lead scenario later, because as you can and you might actually had a background in
00:43:54:22 - 00:44:08:10
MJ
creating video games about Greek mythology. so he he took it one step further. and Final Fantasy seven, Final Fantasy film fantasy ten, the fabulous novel Crystal Palace.
00:44:08:12 - 00:44:10:24
Wade
that's the 13 compilation.
00:44:10:27 - 00:44:41:25
MJ
I am so when you know from from Final Fantasy seven onwards, the you know, while I think those who have studied mythology or those who studied religion, are unable to pick up on quite a number of, instances, you know, across the series over the last 25 years where there is very, very deliberate influence that has appeared within Final Fantasy.
00:44:41:25 - 00:45:12:04
MJ
And I think what Final Fantasy 16 has done is recognize that, you can do sort of the universal maths, the, the comparative mythology and used these stories, these universal truths and a new way. I think that's what they've done. Because as much as Business Unit three, you know, the frame of mind, say 14 is, is is is an absolute phenomenon.
00:45:12:06 - 00:45:26:19
MJ
But a to do with how it started before a Rome Reborn. come also because it's, it's, it's longevity on the the number of writers that have come in and out and styles that have come and gone is no as coherent as.
00:45:26:19 - 00:45:27:00
Wade
Yeah.
00:45:27:03 - 00:45:49:02
MJ
You know, a single title, a single release title like Final Fantasy 16. So I think what they wanted to do was take their knowledge, their their understanding, their, their love of Final Fantasy as a series and then the, the sort that the universal truths into one, one coherent story as my, my take on it. But so I.
00:45:49:04 - 00:46:07:00
Wade
I want one more question. I'd like for us to move on to some other topics, but, this is a question that we ask in my class. And so if any of my students are listening, then how many bonus points? I guess maybe, if you cite this in the paper, but.
00:46:07:02 - 00:46:08:17
Evan
take you up on that.
00:46:08:19 - 00:46:33:14
Wade
They probably will. You went I I'm done. One of the critiques, that I sometimes hear, or complaints that I get is why would we pay attention to myths? They're fake. Right? Why why is mythology something worth listening to today? Even if it's in a video game that alludes to it? Why?
00:46:33:17 - 00:46:58:09
MJ
I think I think mythology is just one way of telling stories. and it's one thing. And we quite often find this in our own lives that you, the, the, the elders that are in this or our parents or an older brother or sister or, you know, they'll often say that you have to experience it for yourself. You know what?
00:46:58:10 - 00:47:30:15
MJ
No one can tell you how to feel. No one can tell you, you know how you're going to react to a certain thing. so it if if I, if I had some profound wisdom that I wanted to share with you, I wouldn't outright you just to share directly what that wisdom was, I would have to find a way to actually make you understand and appreciate it for yourself, experience it for yourself.
00:47:30:15 - 00:47:57:20
MJ
And quite often, you know when it comes to, to, different mediums, the, you know, mythology is just one way of telling those stories. You know, these we see in movies, we see in books, you know, that you can you know, you can find these pieces of wisdom that you might not otherwise have in your life. and you can understand the message of that with, you know, through, through different mediums.
00:47:57:20 - 00:48:15:04
MJ
And I think that's just what mythology has is it's a way of giving you these profound truths without, you know, just outright stating what it is. You know, you know, you have to experience this for yourself. So I think going back to the, the, the difference between mythos and logos, that the, you know, I've discussed many times.
00:48:15:06 - 00:48:38:07
Wade
Yeah. You know, it's I think that you nailed it there. Right. you know, it's the idea of telling parables rather than just giving instructions. you want to you want to help people feel the need or the urgency of the implication of the logos. Right? You can just say the logos, but it's much stronger when it's founded in a myth or a mythos.
00:48:38:07 - 00:49:13:21
Wade
Right. Which is the story of 16. Right? it's the culmination of all of these different, myths becoming, I guess innate inherent in Clive and Clive and Joshua, particularly, Karen Armstrong. I don't know if you've ever read this book. It's, it's a little bit more on, religious, history, I guess. But it's called The Case for God, and it's not an apologetics book, but it's more of like a history of theology and religion, inclusive of of Egypt all the way to modern day.
00:49:13:23 - 00:49:36:28
Wade
She describes and defines myth, and I'm kind of going off the top of my head. She defines myth as something that may or may not have been true at the time, but in some ways it's true every time and for every time. And I think that that's always been a really guide guiding post for me in thinking about religion, mythology and all this stuff.
00:49:36:28 - 00:49:55:17
Wade
Where where is truth? because truth is greater than fact. And I think that we see that in the games we play, the stories that we cherish. You yourself. I mean, if I could venture so far as to say one of your core mythos is Final Fantasy seven, it's part of your origin story. And it's made you who you are.
00:49:55:19 - 00:50:07:09
Wade
And that's speaks to the power of video games and video game narratives that we can even say. This was a formative thing that created MJ Gallagher, right? Yeah, kind of a cool thing.
00:50:07:11 - 00:50:46:25
MJ
absolutely. You know, I my I was I was raised as a Catholic and I'm not, I'm not a practicing Catholic or sort of invested in, any sort of faith practicing, at all nowadays. But, I found. I found this the. The manner in which I was taught, growing up then resonate with me the way that in each of, you know, the brain finds itself in one of the core messages is the process of grief.
00:50:46:28 - 00:50:59:12
MJ
This idea of, you know, this is not just about life and death. It's about how you react to death. It's about acceptance. It's about coming to terms with loss and dealing with that in an appropriate way.
00:50:59:15 - 00:51:01:16
Wade
Yeah.
00:51:01:19 - 00:51:37:29
MJ
and that's not something that you can ever tell anyone that that's not something that the closest you can get to having them understand that for themselves without, you know, you know, actually experiencing it is to, to do it through, a story like thing of seven, to do it through a parable, to do it through a mask, to allow someone to understand the message that you're trying to get across a period of time and, you know, the you would not feel the loss of enough had you not just spent 20 hours in our company.
00:51:38:01 - 00:52:02:01
MJ
Yeah. You know, but you wouldn't be able to do that with a film, you know, you could do it with a book. But of course, there's the Square Enix. R square is often a video game company, but, the point is, you know, without having to lose someone yourself, you can understand the message of what this is like, how people react to that.
00:52:02:04 - 00:52:29:24
MJ
You know, how how to process grief and, you know, and appropriately, but you, you do it through this beautiful story that has monsters and aliens and, you know, a meteor coming to destroy the world. And I and more importantly, the lifestream, which is a great way of, you know, really tapping into the idea of the collective unconscious and universal truths and so on and so forth.
00:52:29:24 - 00:52:56:08
MJ
So, yeah, that's, I can I can't agree more with this idea. The importance of mass is the allow us to, you know, understand messages that we for certainly couldn't understand or certainly appreciate if we just, you know, directly articulated or an instruction, as you put it.
00:52:56:10 - 00:53:24:13
Wade
It's one of the things that I think I appreciated most to hear it in, in the way that you talked about this game. It's one of the things I appreciated most about Final Fantasy 16. It reminds me of, though she is not necessarily a religious scholar. but, therapist and psychologist Brené Brown once said that modern day exchange, religion, modern day religion exchanges, the the mystery of the divine and human existence for certainty.
00:53:24:13 - 00:53:47:02
Wade
And that's a huge loss for us. And I feel as though that is something that 16 tackles those in the game that feel as though their, icon or understanding of the dominance and icons is certain. Well, they're the ones that are really missing out. But then at the end, you don't have necessarily a crumbling of these mythos, but you have the vivisection.
00:53:47:02 - 00:54:08:00
Wade
This is this revival of these through a greater mystery. And to me, that was the almost heartwarming piece of the end. You know, this isn't a spoiler cast or anything, but, I hear these things from what you're doing. And honestly, the tidbits that you've given us today make me more excited about your books. And that's so, so, so good.
00:54:08:26 - 00:54:09:16
MJ
Thank you.
00:54:09:19 - 00:54:26:02
Wade
We do want to shift gears in just a moment. we've got other things to talk about. especially some Final Fantasy seven stuff that I want to get into with you. But any closing comments about your experience of Final Fantasy 16 and meet us?
00:54:26:05 - 00:54:52:18
MJ
Yeah. yeah. I, I absolutely adored Final Fantasy 16. I would go as far as to say that it is behind Final Fantasy seven. It is my second favorite, and the series and well, I do appreciate that it is not everyone's cup of tea. I think what I was looking for a what I was looking for in the game was the mythology and or the theology as well.
00:54:52:18 - 00:55:22:04
MJ
And what, what I hope to do is I, I think that because I was looking for that and because I understood the mythological references and the religious allusions, and I got so much out of the game that perhaps those unfamiliar with these, these fields, it was lost on them. and to me, that that's a great pity.
00:55:22:07 - 00:55:35:21
MJ
So one of the purposes of this book is I hope to share why I feel that Final Fantasy 16 is, you know, as much as it does have its flaws as, a masterpiece in storytelling.
00:55:35:24 - 00:55:38:06
Wade
Yeah.
00:55:38:09 - 00:56:10:21
MJ
and I hope to explain to those who missed out on that why that's a masterpiece. so I do hope that anyone who has an interest in the mythology or the religious allusions, or who is about to have their mind blown to bits by the Gnostic stuff, you know, this is please do check out the book because it will, allow you to to view Final Fantasy 16 through a completely different lens and hopefully enrich the experience for you retrospectively.
00:56:10:23 - 00:56:23:21
Wade
There you go. And for our listeners today, remember that you can be a part of the Kickstarter even right now. Check out the link in the comments. make sure that you get your copy. You don't miss this one. It's going to be great.
00:56:23:24 - 00:56:25:12
MJ
Thank you.
00:56:25:12 - 00:56:55:19
Evan
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm so excited to be here. and unfortunately, we have a couple new perspectives for our crime scene that we've stumbled upon. An eyewitness account, if you will. Wait. I wonder if you could introduce this new perspective and just really help him contribute to the discussion that we've had already around these three crime scenes that we've experienced as we look at Final Fantasy seven rebirth and why they chose to tell the story that way.
00:56:55:22 - 00:57:19:00
Wade
Eyewitness account from senior mythologist resident author MJ Gallagher. He was at the scene. and so we want to hear, MJ, how do you process the ending of rebirth? Is it clear what's going on? Did you immediately know? What did you see, feel and experience at the end of rebirth?
00:57:19:02 - 00:57:27:05
MJ
Well, boys, it's it's looking like a bit of a mess. actually,
00:57:27:08 - 00:57:28:16
Evan
Keep going, I loved it.
00:57:28:18 - 00:57:31:02
Wade
No, I loved it.
00:57:31:05 - 00:57:58:17
MJ
I, I had a fairly definitive picture in my mind. once, once I saw the crime scene, the. It took me back to a personal experience. the I had last year, where I know, I know that an advance of. Of what? Missing the scene. I was uncertain what I was going to find. you know, was I going to find a dead body?
00:57:58:17 - 00:58:36:04
MJ
Was. I could find something missing. Was I couldn't find no crime scene. but the experience that I had, and in terms of processing loss, last year was the, the confusion, of grief, the the inability to accept what was clearly presented in front of me. and, you know, even though, I've, when I think back to, to, the loss and it quite simply just doesn't register.
00:58:36:07 - 00:59:04:11
MJ
So having been through that already, what what my, my own experience taught me is that death is not something that you would necessarily react to immediately. It's not something that you would break down in tears. You know, for some people, of course, as my that's not how I reacted. My reaction was nothing, you know, it was just, it simply was not registering this.
00:59:04:11 - 00:59:56:05
MJ
And I feel that that is exactly who, in the staff was depicted in Final Fantasy seven rebirth. that clouds after that, after a few moments of, you know. Holding in his body, tears rolling down his face, experiencing anger, and then moving into a position where he he just wasn't accepting what was going on. And I think I think that the way that it's been presented is that, that has almost been a split and fit where he is simultaneously experiencing two things, which is leading to from a narrative perspective, it's, as I said, leading to his confusion.
00:59:56:07 - 01:00:22:12
MJ
but there's also the sort of the psychological side of it where his, his trauma is in real time, you know, stopping him from, from breaking essentially. so what this does for the player is present us with an incomplete, puzzle. So we are not 100% sure what Chloe is experiencing because he's not 100% sure of what is experiencing.
01:00:22:15 - 01:01:01:28
MJ
Similarly, the characters around him are uncertain of what cloud is is doing because the the way that he's presenting himself is as if he is existing in a world where if he's not died, whereas everyone else is existing in a world she has. So that's the sort of crossover where they think he is, you know, almost sociopathic. because he, he is just not processing that grief.
01:01:02:00 - 01:01:36:23
MJ
And to me, it was so familiar, you know, not because, you know, I'm sociopathic, or refusing to accept the death of a loved one, but. Because I, you know, I just went about my day as if nothing had happened. Because it was it was so horrible to to try and come to terms with, and as a, as a result of that, I, I don't I don't believe that anything has actually changed from the original game.
01:01:36:26 - 01:02:12:27
MJ
I think it's just the explanation of what's going on in clones minds has been shown in some way in order to lay the foundations of whoa, what will happen to cloud when his mind does completely break, and the manner in which they're forced to manipulate? In those instances? so I actually, as much as I appreciate the the the confusion took away the, the emotional aspect that the people were hoping for, the divine.
01:02:12:29 - 01:02:51:07
MJ
you know, I think I think the problem wasn't that they wanted enough to live or die. They just wanted to have an emotional reaction for what, what the creative team did was to remove that emotional reaction and that that is all the that has left for a lot of people is anger. But again, for for me personally, because I experienced something similar the year before and it was the perfect way to depict grief and a reaction to grief and a reaction to death.
01:02:51:10 - 01:03:00:19
MJ
you know, in actually in any medium is the best and most accurate way. I've seen that reflected.
01:03:00:21 - 01:03:29:15
Wade
I don't know if I've heard it put quite as clearly as you just said, that this is such a strong depiction of the reality of grief and mourning in the moment, you know. And I wonder if in 1997, one of the questions that we ask is, why are they telling the story this way? And my question is, in 1997, with text and with the advent of FMV and all this kind of stuff really coming into its place, could they have told the story quite in this way?
01:03:29:15 - 01:03:49:06
Wade
And I'm not sure they could have, without it just being, like, wildly confusing. but just to be clear, though, you you this was a loaded statement. I know a lot of people may disagree with you on this one. You think that it's pretty much going the same way as the original game I do.
01:03:49:08 - 01:04:13:15
MJ
Okay, so I think the the for B for B is almost exactly the same, I think. I think because of how, how iconic Elizabeth was, and the original game, there is no way to capture that shock again. Yeah. So what they had to do is capture and process grief in a different way. And I think that's I think that's exactly what they've done.
01:04:13:15 - 01:04:22:06
MJ
And I applaud them for it because I think it is a very, very real way that they have they have presented this.
01:04:22:08 - 01:04:49:10
Wade
Love it, love it. So with that same thing, you think Aerith is dead? that cloud's psyche is kind of fractured really quickly. what is going on with Zack? Because this stuff is pretty new in rebirth, even though it's somewhat alluded to in in the original. But what's going on with these different Zack's?
01:04:49:12 - 01:05:22:18
MJ
I, I personally don't believe that the, the, the other worlds are taking place in the least. You might do genuinely believe they are physical locations. it seems to be, an overlap. you know, let's say dimension, of the physical planet because there seems to be multiple physical planes, but only one live stream. which is why the other worlds, worlds that are coming to an end, the lifestream seems to have been drained from them.
01:05:22:18 - 01:05:31:07
MJ
And the best way that I can try to describe this is, I don't know if you're familiar with Philip Pullman's, His Dark Materials.
01:05:31:09 - 01:05:32:00
Wade
Oh, yes.
01:05:32:03 - 01:05:58:18
MJ
Yeah. So one of one of the items that becomes available in that saga is called The Subtle Knife, where you're able to slice, slice openings or they see portals between the different layers of, the worlds that coexist. So you are in the same physical space, but you can move between the planes of existence.
01:05:58:20 - 01:05:59:19
Wade
Interesting. Okay.
01:05:59:19 - 01:06:34:23
MJ
In the same physical space, underneath allows you to, to do that, which, you know, I think that's what's that's what's happening here. my. My personal mythology, mythological take on this is that the worlds themselves are branches of a tree. And the trunk of the tree is the main timeline. okay. Every time they, there is, a sort of branch that the feet split that will all branch off.
01:06:34:23 - 01:06:58:07
MJ
And then within those branches that will become branches that will then split off. And that's depicted in the scene with Zach, and the, the, the train tunnel, you know, it effectively has three different options Z equals to B or it doesn't do anything and ends up setting up the stairs inside the church, or it goes to the general building, or he goes to get Beggs, and each of those are represented by a different stamp.
01:06:58:09 - 01:07:32:09
MJ
But we we then have, you know, a main branch with some branches and the amount of 3D symbolism and tree imagery and iconography that's going on through rebirth, along with the, the high volume of references to Norse mythology and Norse mythology or Norse cosmology, of course, is represented by the world tree. I don't think it's a coincidence that I think that we are seeing parts of the world tree.
01:07:32:12 - 01:07:33:01
MJ
Yeah.
01:07:33:03 - 01:07:33:18
Wade
Okay.
01:07:33:23 - 01:07:35:10
Evan
Yeah. Okay.
01:07:35:13 - 01:07:53:23
Wade
That that makes a lot of sense. and I can also tell that you and I have pretty similar origin stories. This supports our interest. So, Yeah. Stay tuned. for, for some things coming out that. That's really cool. I may have to call you after this call sometime to get your take on something. So great stuff.
01:07:53:25 - 01:08:11:18
Wade
Well, we've continued looking through this crime scene. MJ, thank you so much. Your your account has been incredibly insightful. and it's going to leave us thinking a little bit more. I could probably talk to you about this for days to come, but in the interest of time, thank you so much.
01:08:11:21 - 01:08:13:02
MJ
My pleasure.
01:08:13:02 - 01:08:23:15
Evan
All right. Just as we kind of wrap things up and start to process, thinking about the things that we're gaining in our lives before we jump straight into the games portion.
01:08:23:18 - 01:08:38:01
Evan
MJ, thanks again for being here. What is it that kind of helps keep you grounded in life and in in your professional career and in your personal life? What are those things that really help you stay grounded?
01:08:38:03 - 01:09:03:28
MJ
I have, first of all, I, I never ceases to amaze me that others are interested in my work, so I try to remain as grateful and as humble as I can. the the second thing is that I always, I have a real desire in this to create and, you know, almost, one of my favorite things in life is giving gifts or helping people or things a lot.
01:09:03:28 - 01:09:24:26
MJ
And I find, I think I find that my creativity is almost like that. So it's almost like, release. And I treat, I treat my writing as a kind of therapy thing. So that, helps me with my mental health. It, you know, I, I make time for it every single day to, to sit down and, and have that outlet.
01:09:24:26 - 01:09:40:22
MJ
And, as a direct result of that, no matter what is going on in my day, just having that time and being disciplined and allowing myself to, to sort of work in a creative fashion, want to sort of bring me back to the equilibrium.
01:09:40:24 - 01:09:41:15
Evan
That's awesome.
01:09:41:15 - 01:09:42:27
Wade
So it's incredible that.
01:09:42:27 - 01:10:10:17
Evan
Discipline is hard to develop. I imagine, and since you're a writer, I know that means that you are a bit of a reader. Then probably, too, we're compiling a required reading list of video games to play for the listeners with all of our guests. and so if there were 1 or 2 titles that you would want to put on the required reading list, what would those be?
01:10:10:17 - 01:10:13:29
Evan
For people who are approaching games?
01:10:14:01 - 01:10:45:19
MJ
Wow. weirdly enough, I don't tend to deviate to too much from the Final Fantasy series. I do have. Yeah, I can have, an 85 job, and I have young kids at home, and I work on my writing every single day, so I actually have a minimal team that, allows me to game. And what time I do allow, is almost exclusively Final Fantasy.
01:10:45:22 - 01:11:03:10
MJ
so my relatable. My answer to that is, to two of the best games I've ever played have been released over the last 12 months, and Final Fantasy seven reports and Final Fantasy 16. So I guess I guess that would have to be my really boring answer.
01:11:03:12 - 01:11:04:16
Evan
that's it's so good.
01:11:04:19 - 01:11:06:25
Wade
They're all timer, so that's a great answer.
01:11:06:25 - 01:11:27:21
Evan
Okay, so first, a little clarification. Would you say that someone needs to play the original Final Fantasy seven before they have to play the remake and rebirth to really appreciate it? Or would you say, you know what, just jump right in to remake and then go to rebirth and just have a good time and look up everything else?
01:11:27:24 - 01:11:52:26
MJ
I, I personally wouldn't say that the, playing the original is, is required. I think it would help, enrich the experience. perhaps because, you know, elements of the old Game of Thrones not aged particularly well. Some, some parts have some parts of not, but I think the story of Frame Fantasy seven stands up on its own.
01:11:52:26 - 01:12:17:21
MJ
Anyway, on whether or not you understand what's going on with the Westeros or the additional mysteries that have been added. I, you know, I don't think that it's particularly dependent on the original game. So I would say, no, you don't have to play the original one. In fact, if you're new to Final Fantasy, I would probably encourage you not to probably encourage you to start with remake.
01:12:17:23 - 01:12:41:00
Evan
Okay, so start with Final Fantasy seven remake. If you've never played or approached anything, that's great. Another wonderful addition to our required reading list. In the midst of your busy schedule and taking good time with your family and you're writing, we just want to say thank you so much again for taking the time to be with us. We know that you probably gave up your gaming time to come here and do this interview with us, and so we are just so appreciative.
01:12:41:00 - 01:12:45:06
Evan
It was so nice to meet you and I really had a great time listening and learning from you.
01:12:45:08 - 01:12:50:03
MJ
Thank you so much. I'm so grateful to be here, and thank you for that, for having me on.
01:12:50:05 - 01:12:53:07
Wade
Absolutely. So where can people find you?
01:12:53:10 - 01:13:16:10
MJ
the best place to get me on social media is probably through X or Twitter. Just art fi novels. I'm also producing, content for Q book on, so I'll be on Capricorns channel on YouTube, which is, you know, just Capricorn. I think it's kind gone in, but I.
01:13:16:13 - 01:13:17:28
Wade
Will tag them in my notes. Yeah.
01:13:17:29 - 01:13:47:23
MJ
I'm currently working through our our Screen Fantasy seven, rebirth breakdown series. I'm just sort of pointing out all the hidden details that, individuals who are perhaps not as familiar with the completion or the background content, may have missed for just a around. I have my my entire back catalog of works is available in my Patreon account, and most of it is just free to check out which is which is Patreon.com forward slash MG Gallagher.
01:13:47:26 - 01:14:15:03
MJ
on my my existing mythology books, Norse myths that inspired Final Fantasy seven and Greek myths that inspired Final Fantasy seven are both available on Amazon. just around the world if you are interested in checking those out. And finally, until the 4th of August, my Kickstarter for Mythos, Final Fantasy 16 is life. so if you are interested in finding out more about that, please do please do canvas visit on Kickstarter.
01:14:15:06 - 01:14:24:21
Wade
Fantastic. And all those links are in our show notes, so be sure and check them out. MJ, thank you so much again for being here. Absolute delight.
01:14:24:24 - 01:14:26:10
Evan
I had a great time.
01:14:26:16 - 01:14:28:00
Unknown
You.
01:14:28:00 - 01:14:48:23
Speaker 1
Thanks to MJ Gallagher again for the interview. Another thanks to sing, for the laughter for the use of the music on this episode. We really appreciate it and thanks to Nick Smith for doing our graphics. We appreciate all of you tuning in and we look forward to seeing you next episode. Thanks.
