The ProfNoctis Weekly Show

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:05:11
Evan
Hey, everybody, welcome to the weekly show. Wade, What makes a good ending?

00:00:05:13 - 00:00:11:09
Wade
That is a great question. I may not know, but we are going to find out today. Welcome to the weekly show.

00:00:14:27 - 00:00:16:05
Unknown
You.

00:00:16:12 - 00:00:24:18
Wade
All right. In today's show, we are going to start a brand new segment that is called Roll Credits because Evan over here just finished a game. What game was it?

00:00:24:25 - 00:00:32:13
Evan
I have completed and rolled credits on a God of War Ragnarok, a game that released so long ago.

00:00:32:15 - 00:00:34:22
Wade
Ladies and gentlemen.

00:00:34:24 - 00:00:40:14
Evan
Two years late, but still at the party. We're so happy. I'm a real boy. I'm a real boy.

00:00:40:22 - 00:00:42:09
Wade
Now don't get me started. No more lies.

00:00:42:15 - 00:00:59:29
Evan
Oh, man. If you a everybody. If you haven't seen his epic saga of beating lies of pee. And you'd like to have the story of Pinocchio read to you by the prophet Noctis, make sure you check out that channel. And if you have nine hours and want to watch us do the entire finale together, and by.

00:01:00:00 - 00:01:00:17
Wade
Finale.

00:01:00:18 - 00:01:05:18
Evan
Meaning I just try to keep everyone entertained. Well, Wade tries to not lose his mind.

00:01:05:24 - 00:01:08:03
Wade
In the fight of my life. Yeah, you know.

00:01:08:10 - 00:01:14:23
Evan
It was the fight of your life. But then you you first tried like the second to last. Boss.

00:01:14:26 - 00:01:42:07
Wade
Yeah, the second to last, boss. It was like one shot. It is like, what was that? And then it was just like an appetizer before the main course. So anyway, anyway, that that is up on the YouTube channel, but today we are talking about endings of games. So before we get into Evan's experience with God of War Ragnarok, we wanted to spend some time talking about what is a good ending, bad ending.

00:01:42:07 - 00:01:59:21
Wade
What makes, the ending of a story, a movie, and especially a video game worthwhile? Evan, have you ever had a game or a movie or a story? Any any sort of story? I guess that left you, like, jaw dropped. It just kind of resonates in your mind.

00:01:59:23 - 00:02:22:05
Evan
Yeah. It's this feeling. The first time that I remember. It is probably reading books as a kid where you got really immersed into a world, and then the book just ends, and so you are sitting there maybe staring at the page. Maybe you're reading the about the author at the end. Sometimes I'll even just desperate to reengage with the world.

00:02:22:05 - 00:02:46:10
Evan
Just read the back cover to see what like the synopsis was now that I had kind of finished it. and so the first memory that I have is those books. Yeah. Is is reading. And it's like the world continues on, but I'm stuck back in the real world, whether I'm just sitting in my bedroom reading or on the couch, and it's like, no one knows what I just went through.

00:02:46:10 - 00:03:01:29
Evan
It's a personal experience that you don't really know how to explain. So I feel that way a lot, especially with stories with really rich characters and world building that you've really kind of become a part of. You just kind of just sit there and just like, wow.

00:03:02:01 - 00:03:21:13
Wade
Yeah. So I had this experience actually last week. So I'm sitting on a beach, family vacation, all this stuff. And I have just finished reading the book Dark Matter by Blake Crouch. you had suggested to me the Apple TV show. I watched one episode and, couldn't wait for the second episode. So I went to Barnes and Noble and I bought the book.

00:03:21:13 - 00:03:45:08
Wade
Okay, literally. And then I just I binged it at the beach. Okay. Just like. And so I go through this whole saga and just like you said, I get to the end. The last words. I'm so satisfied and enamored by this ending that I read all of the Q&A at the back with the author, all of the like, you know, thank you's, and the foreword that I skipped at the beginning.

00:03:45:08 - 00:04:08:26
Wade
Like, I could not get enough of it, but it's that moment of like, this story is over. My connection with these characters is done. Yeah. except in my memory. Right. So it's really when you get a good ending, especially to a, a great journey or a story that you've really cherished. I mean, it leaves you almost with a hole in your heart of, like, what do I do now?

00:04:08:28 - 00:04:29:04
Evan
It's amazing how we can get so captivated by stories, and I think it's really healthy for our imaginations to. Yeah, there's a segment that I want to do in the future about how, like, cutscenes and daydreaming in video games helps us to practice imagining what life could be like and helps us in goals. And so I look forward to get that.

00:04:29:04 - 00:04:49:25
Evan
But it makes me think about this. And for those of you who have never played a video game who are listening or watching, thanks for tuning in. brave. to me, you know, the the idea of a video game ending is that they roll credits. So just like a movie or a TV show, and when you finish a video game, almost always they'll kind of roll credits.

00:04:49:25 - 00:05:11:27
Evan
Sometimes it's a scroll, sometimes it's a slideshow, sometimes it's just kind of some acknowledgments. But then they do some kind of interesting things. Sometimes they're interactive, sometimes the credits are rolling while you're running around in the world. If you've ever heard of the game Super Smash Brothers, that's one that had a memorable roll credits, because I think that's the one where you had the little targeting thing that you could move around and you hear like, friends, are.

00:05:11:27 - 00:05:12:21
Wade
You doing things?

00:05:12:21 - 00:05:15:21
Evan
Yeah, shooting lasers at the credits. Well, it rolls.

00:05:15:27 - 00:05:19:10
Evan
At the developers, I guess. I don't know, it's a meta commentary.

00:05:19:10 - 00:05:52:09
Evan
I don't need one that's perfect. so I think that brings us to this idea of video game credits and the ending of a video game story. In what ways do you think an interactive story that you participate in, like a video game, differs in the way that it kind of ends? And your experience while you're doing it because you have some agency, sometimes you're even choosing what happens in the ending, like the old choose Your Own Adventure books from the old Scholastic Book Fair.

00:05:52:12 - 00:06:01:05
Wade
Yeah, and that was not always a definite good ending or one that you were excited about. It's like you got to reload that old. The save is like saves coming right with Baldur's Gate.

00:06:01:05 - 00:06:23:16
Evan
Yeah, it is like, I don't know if you ever did this when I was reading Choose Your Own Adventure books if you've never read one. Basically they books that say, okay, now turn to page X. And so you go to this page and it gives you kind of the next step in the story. And it's what creates this chain that I would like keep a finger in the decision that I made if that makes.

00:06:23:17 - 00:06:43:14
Evan
Yeah. Like I put my finger in between the pages and hold my spot. Now sometimes this would be like inception where I'd go like five levels deep dive deep. I have like I have like bookmarks and like napkins and things where I'm trying to keep the chain from the one decision that I made to make sure that I can explore all the possibilities.

00:06:43:14 - 00:06:45:25
Evan
Did. Did you ever do something like that?

00:06:45:27 - 00:07:11:05
Wade
Oh, absolutely. Are you kidding me? Like I was plotting it out. okay. Like I think that it probably informed my understanding of predestination theology and like, a basketball bracket of things. Yeah, but, like, it's so funny that you mention this. I maybe it's too early in the show for me to get, like, hyper academic, but I was reading, as we do, Four Quartets by T.S. Eliot earlier today.

00:07:11:05 - 00:07:16:17
Wade
Like, as we do, you know, there was a reason I was looking at it, but one of the.

00:07:16:22 - 00:07:19:14
Evan
Read for a casual The.

00:07:19:14 - 00:07:21:10
Wade
Today show on and I'm.

00:07:21:10 - 00:07:25:08
Evan
Reading T.S. Eliot. So what?

00:07:25:11 - 00:07:52:22
Wade
There's this one portion that begins with, the idea of hearing the footfalls of a path not taken and, that, that that person that exists down that corridor of decision making exists both in the past and in the future, simultaneously. And like, it's always that question or wondering. And that's what choose your own adventure books really got me into as a seven year old.

00:07:52:22 - 00:07:58:19
Wade
Like using I, I used to read Mario Brothers Choose Your Own Adventure books. Did you ever have those? Did you see those?

00:07:58:19 - 00:07:59:27
Evan
I didn't, but that sounds oh.

00:07:59:27 - 00:08:18:04
Wade
Man, they were so good. And they're like an, like a yard sale or whatever at this point, somebody else's home. But I wish I still had them, but I would utilize this and I would think, okay, well, what if I made Mario go and do this way or this way? And it gave me a sense of agency that even the video games did not have at that point.

00:08:18:05 - 00:08:39:27
Wade
Now, you could do have a little bit more agency in games, for sure. Path direction. But it's that idea of controlling the story. So to your original question, it I think that the answer is that video games, when they do offer you that level of agency, the ending is like an ownership sort of thing. You earned this ending.

00:08:39:27 - 00:08:49:20
Wade
Yeah. Like it was a story of your making, which is something you really can't get from, a book or a movie. The same exact way, right?

00:08:49:22 - 00:09:15:19
Evan
Yeah, we experience it differently. And I think we you've mentioned this before when someone's describing playing a game, they'll say, I did this even though they're controlling the character. We use very personalized language that I think impacts our experience as far as storytelling goes. I wonder if we could explore some of the basics of storytelling and then kind of overlay that on the video games.

00:09:15:19 - 00:09:31:13
Evan
So what do we know about, we can put our little educational caps on here? What do we know about general storytelling, and what can we do to set the framework for how we can talk and evaluate the way that a story ends when we roll credits?

00:09:31:15 - 00:10:02:15
Wade
There's a lot of different archetypes for how to write a good story and certainly a good ending, but most of them are all going to resonate, with four basic criteria and I'm getting this synopsis from, masterclass, of all things. So I took, 4 or 5 different authors and, synthesize some of their opinions. James Patterson, David Mamet, Judy Blume, so some others that have, contributed to some of this stuff.

00:10:02:15 - 00:10:25:14
Wade
So anyway, Masterclass is where we're getting this particular article, but they said, that there are four criteria. And the first one is resolution, second one transformation, the third one suspense, and the fourth one surprise. So resolution, transformation, suspense and surprise when we can break those down.

00:10:25:18 - 00:10:33:08
Evan
Yeah. So these are kind of four elements that are present in these storytelling arcs. So the first one is resolution. Talk about what that means.

00:10:33:10 - 00:10:51:02
Wade
It wraps up the plot. Right? I like the central conflict that's been laid out from the beginning of the novel is wrapped up. There are no loose ends kind of dangling. Regarding the central conflict, it doesn't mean that all loose ends have to be tied up, but that central conflict needs to be. That's an important thing.

00:10:51:05 - 00:10:56:22
Evan
Okay? It ties up the central conflict that it presents resolution, transformation. Tell us what that means.

00:10:56:24 - 00:11:15:19
Wade
transformation is going to bring about like a close to the character's development. If the character, the main character, and especially in a video game, the one that you are controlling is the exact same at the end as he or she was at the beginning, well, then you're not going to get that payoff of, I'm a different person because of this experience.

00:11:15:19 - 00:11:31:24
Wade
A good novel is going to do that good movie. We criticize characters. They're just static, right? if they're the main character, we have a little bit more forgiveness for side characters, but, if the journey was worth telling, your character should be impacted in some way. I would say, yeah.

00:11:31:24 - 00:11:38:19
Evan
What about characters from, like, other dimensions lightly mentioned in a first game, but then expanded upon Signif? Don't answer that.

00:11:38:21 - 00:11:42:16
Evan
That's for another day. Okay.

00:11:42:18 - 00:11:46:00
Evan
Let's talk about let's talk about suspense.

00:11:46:03 - 00:12:07:28
Wade
Suspense? suspense is, kind of that moment at the end of any climactic moment where it feels like your hero, your protagonist, is not going to make it out or not going to succeed. So a good ending is going to have some sort of dramatic payoff of like, oh man, I didn't know how they were going to get out of that or something like that.

00:12:07:28 - 00:12:29:03
Wade
I think back to, some of the pivotal battle scenes and like Game of Thrones, where it's like, oh my gosh, I'm like, she's not going to do it. Or like I think particularly of Arya Stark and her arc, and it's like she's not going to be able to to overcome. And then she's always clutch. In the end, it feels like so spoilery.

00:12:29:03 - 00:12:31:22
Evan
But some of the spoiler is clutch and Game of Thrones.

00:12:31:27 - 00:12:52:06
Wade
She's clutch and Game of Thrones everywhere. And in, what was that, Nickelodeon fighting game? multi multi something she she's in it. Yeah. It's like she's a fighter brothers. It's Warner Brothers in what's called multiverse versus multiverses. That's what it is with Aria Stark. And it's funny.

00:12:52:12 - 00:12:53:28
Evan
And like LeBron James anyway.

00:12:54:01 - 00:12:57:21
Wade
And LeBron James it's like it's like yeah okay.

00:12:57:21 - 00:13:03:11
Evan
So let's talk about our fourth one. Surprise. The fourth one is it starts in a fight game.

00:13:03:14 - 00:13:37:10
Wade
Surprise. yeah. Basically the, the the reader or the player is going to, to be entertained by an ending that subverts some kind of, expectation. So if you can predict the ending, then it can make a great story fall flat, basically. so there's this idea of like, oh, I didn't see that one coming. And yet if it's too far out of the realm, then that surprise can completely undo some of the good storytelling that's already been done.

00:13:37:13 - 00:13:54:13
Evan
That's so difficult to kind of land for an audience. Right? Because all of these things are fairly subjective, based on your experience and perception of the story, of the characters, whether you were looking down at your phone while the episode was playing and you missed some critical detail.

00:13:54:13 - 00:13:55:25
Wade
Well, that is not the truth.

00:13:56:28 - 00:14:23:21
Evan
That and that's just kind of how it is. So if we take this structure and we take it to heart and then apply it to why an ending feels good, or maybe not as good, it seems like an understanding that these things being present or underdeveloped might contribute to whether we feel like an ending was good or satisfactory, or whether we feel like maybe it wasn't.

00:14:23:22 - 00:14:54:16
Evan
Maybe there wasn't enough tension, so it just didn't end the way that we wanted. Maybe we didn't see the resolution with the plotlines that we liked, so it didn't feel as good. But it judging and assessing an ending of a story is inherently subjective, depending on like, the reader or the player in a game, but I think this can provide a nice four part structure to help us understand why we feel the way that we feel about endings.

00:14:54:24 - 00:14:58:00
Evan
How has this impacted the way that you view stories?

00:14:58:03 - 00:15:25:12
Wade
Well, I think that it hits all. It gives voice to all of the things that I kind of already innately knew, you know? Yeah. like, I, I was probably able to deduce that, like why I didn't like an ending, but I wouldn't have said it quite as eloquently as these four criteria lay out, like, oh, the central conflict really wasn't resolved or it was resolved in an unsatisfying manner.

00:15:25:14 - 00:15:50:28
Wade
like this. This solution came out of nowhere, and there was no way for me to really, like, put that together, honestly, to another segment that we do. That is one of my issues with the original Final Fantasy seven, okay? And that's why I think that the trilogy by the way, we're not getting into it today, but, it that's one of the reasons why I think that the new Re trilogy is, is providing context for this.

00:15:50:28 - 00:16:00:08
Wade
Like resolution that comes about in the end. So anyway, but, another day we will revisit these four for our true crime podcast.

00:16:00:08 - 00:16:01:00
Evan
And Final Fantasy.

00:16:01:03 - 00:16:35:11
Evan
Check out check out True True Crime and episode three. so let's talk about a selective and interactive media like video games and how it impacts storytelling. For example, if I felt like a conclusion or ending to a game was satisfactory to me, or it felt good, but you didn't. Video games are unique media because there's sidequests and other optional content that can contribute to the story that you can choose to participate in to understand it more or not.

00:16:35:14 - 00:16:51:19
Evan
So I think it's fairly unique to video game storytelling as a medium because you you if somebody is like, I don't think the ending of the movie felt good and you're like, you don't ask them, what did you watch the whole thing? It's just implied that they watched the whole thing, and it was this kind of linear thing.

00:16:51:22 - 00:17:16:03
Evan
That's true. In order that you experienced things that happened, the choices that you make, the ways that you do it, it adds context to some of these things the tension, the resolution, the transformation. So how do you manage, feeling like an ending could be satisfactory or not. It feels good or bad when not everyone has the exact same experience, like reading a book or watching a show.

00:17:16:03 - 00:17:17:04
Evan
What do we do with that?

00:17:17:06 - 00:17:38:16
Wade
Well, it's so challenging. I think back to playing through Elden Ring, back when that first came out, and it's timely now with shadow there. Trigger now released in people's hands. But, I spent my first playthrough 165 hours in the Elden Ring. I know people that spent 40 hours in the Elden Ring and they like rolled credits on it.

00:17:38:16 - 00:18:03:17
Wade
Okay, what was the difference there? they they loved the game, but were really cool on the story. I loved the story, loved the game, all of it. The question is, did we really have the same experience? Well, I was reading through all of the item descriptions and I was, like paying attention to the different movements of the bosses and kind of deducing, you know, what does that mean?

00:18:03:17 - 00:18:04:24
Wade
They're right handed, left.

00:18:04:24 - 00:18:06:10
Evan
Handed, all that kind of stuff.

00:18:06:16 - 00:18:41:19
Wade
Like, what does that mean? Like, just because that's the way that. Yeah, that's what were they reading? What poetry were they reading over breakfast. It's those kind of things. Right. But it's difficult because gamers play games for different sorts of reasons, you know? And while a game of the year candidate like Elden Ring, you can probably deduce that it's an amazing game whether you spend 30 hours or 130 hours in it, it's not so crystal clear for games that may not really reach those same heights, you know?

00:18:41:25 - 00:19:05:00
Wade
And I think that's what becomes really, really difficult. a player's time with a game and side quests and the immersion in the world. If you allow yourself into that, then it may frame the resolution and the transfer mission, by the end of it. And if not, then you kind of get like the, fast food version of that story.

00:19:05:02 - 00:19:07:21
Evan
Yeah. So that's got to be a real challenge for developers.

00:19:07:27 - 00:19:09:23
Wade
To oh my goodness, I can imagine.

00:19:09:23 - 00:19:24:01
Evan
A main story that feels satisfying, side quests that feel impactful. But yeah, you have to tell a main story in some regards. That makes sense. If people don't do any of the optional content.

00:19:24:04 - 00:19:45:16
Wade
What a challenge. What does it. Such a challenge is something that I talk about in some of my classes. I because when I assign, a segment of a video game to, my students, I'll say to them, okay, I want you to do, some side content, but I'll specify which side content comes in. I kind of like say this is different than the other.

00:19:45:22 - 00:20:09:09
Wade
And what I refer to it as like you've got side content. And then what I would call optional main story content. And I think that that is, is, maybe a really better distinction, that devs may want to consider, like what is optional main story content and what is just kind of like extra side world building content.

00:20:09:11 - 00:20:17:18
Wade
so tiers, gradations of that, that if you really want the full thing gradations, gradations. Look at that.

00:20:17:20 - 00:20:33:21
Evan
Yeah that's a great way to frame that. And so when it comes to really experiencing these kind of four things happen in a story, I mean every story has some sort of resolution, transformation, suspense and surprise probably present somewhere.

00:20:33:21 - 00:20:34:09
Wade
Good story.

00:20:34:09 - 00:21:00:21
Evan
Well, yeah. Well, you know, maybe they're little or effective and whether they're effective or not is an interesting thing. So how do you look back when you finish something and you're processing it and you're saying that felt really good or that felt a little bit off? How do you engage with these kind of four elements to help you get a greater sense of the why, like why this felt good or why this felt bad?

00:21:00:24 - 00:21:22:16
Evan
Because when we articulate it and when we talk with our friends or our family and share it with other people, this can provide a great framework for having some language and specificity around those feelings and our opinions. I think it's good to learn how to talk about and helps us process as well. So how would you use these four things to try and better understand your feelings for a game?

00:21:22:18 - 00:21:39:27
Wade
Well, I think you just said it. how you feel about a game is how you feel about a game. I liked the ending. I didn't like the ending. it left me feeling hopeful. It left me feeling really frustrated or discouraged or something like that. And I think that this gives you a framework for answering the question, why?

00:21:39:27 - 00:22:04:06
Wade
Why does it do that? not just saying, oh, I liked the the graphics, which is great, and we love that, but saying, okay, did that really wrap up the central conflict for me? No, I like okay. That's leaving me a sense of hollowness. Or it was an unearned ending in some ways. did my character change for all of the flack that that the series gets?

00:22:04:12 - 00:22:27:09
Wade
especially the sequel of The Last of Us again, does this really, really well, I know that we've mentioned a couple times in this podcast. It's a great storytelling, game, that they have a story, whether you like the story or not, like it is, it is very clear that who your characters are at the beginning of that arc is not who they will be at the end.

00:22:27:11 - 00:22:49:13
Wade
and especially in part two. But even in part one, Joel is different from beginning to end there. And I think that that's one of the ways that you can use this. the suspense I will be honest. We'll get into this in a little bit. there are endings, like in in God of War Ragnarok, where I felt like the suspense just wasn't quite there.

00:22:49:13 - 00:22:58:14
Wade
That climax at the very end, it kind of tapered off again. We'll get to that in just a little bit when we, hear your experience of. And I don't want to color that.

00:22:58:14 - 00:22:59:27
Evan
By any means.

00:22:59:29 - 00:23:15:00
Wade
But you know what I'm saying? When the final fight feels unearned, not lies of P, by the way, lies of P, you feel that I was not the same man after nine hours of fighting that boss, as I was going into it. Yeah.

00:23:15:02 - 00:23:21:12
Evan
Yeah, you dug a lot, but I think it really reborn. Yeah, it was actually, it really shaped you into.

00:23:21:12 - 00:23:23:26
Wade
The 87 times I died and was reborn.

00:23:23:26 - 00:23:26:00
Evan
Shaped you into the puppet that you are.

00:23:26:02 - 00:23:28:12
Evan
I, I'm I'm a real boy. Boy.

00:23:28:14 - 00:23:31:13
Evan
That was my final step to become a real boy.

00:23:31:15 - 00:23:32:10
Wade
freaking Japan.

00:23:32:10 - 00:23:33:00
Evan
Let's talk a little.

00:23:33:00 - 00:23:51:29
Evan
Bit about the different types of endings that can contribute to our feelings. you have, like, cliffhanger endings, you have suspenseful endings, you have kind of cozy endings. There's we don't really have a system that we're going to apply here, but I think if we talk about the type of resolution that we experience, it's also going to impact kind of how we feel.

00:23:51:29 - 00:23:55:07
Evan
And if you like those kinds of endings or not.

00:23:55:09 - 00:24:10:20
Wade
And I wonder if that differs between us. So I, we actually haven't discussed this probably in pre-planning. I bet it does. But like take this, this first example, an ambiguous ending versus an ending that gives you certainty, something.

00:24:10:24 - 00:24:12:19
Evan
That in movies would be.

00:24:12:22 - 00:24:32:10
Wade
Yeah. And then Bigelow's ending would be, inception, for example. like, does the the token fall over at the end or whatever? If you haven't seen a great, great ending? I think, again, there's my bias or a certain ending where you know exactly what happened, where characters are going to end up and all that kind of stuff.

00:24:32:10 - 00:24:33:09
Wade
Like, you just get it into.

00:24:33:09 - 00:24:34:11
Evan
The log that's like.

00:24:34:11 - 00:24:35:11
Wade
You might even be never.

00:24:35:14 - 00:24:40:15
Evan
After the events of the movie, such like opened a coconut stand and, well.

00:24:40:15 - 00:24:41:28
Wade
Exactly like the last.

00:24:41:28 - 00:24:42:25
Evan
Person, the.

00:24:42:25 - 00:25:09:21
Wade
Last hour and a half of, return of the King, Lord of the rings. Like, you have no unresolved storylines at that. Like, I remember that one specifically because my brother and I went at midnight to see it back when we did actual midnight releases. It wasn't like 7 p.m. the day before. murder. And, they're cheating to do that, but we went from midnight to like 4 a.m. and it was like, okay, I really don't care what the blades of grass did in the Shire.

00:25:09:24 - 00:25:15:22
Wade
I'm so tired at this point now. Nope. Certain ending.

00:25:15:25 - 00:25:16:15
Evan
Can we.

00:25:16:17 - 00:25:16:23
Wade
Can we.

00:25:16:23 - 00:25:19:12
Evan
Talk about midnight releases for just a second?

00:25:19:19 - 00:25:29:23
Wade
Yeah, let's. It's a side quest. We need it, I do too. There was something spectacular about that. Something to look forward to. Losing sleep. It was an event.

00:25:29:26 - 00:25:47:02
Evan
I. It was just this confluence. Because one you would always line up outside. You read at night. Releases for video games were awesome because you go online and you just got to talk about the game and you knew everybody was excited. And there you get to meet some crazy characters.

00:25:47:04 - 00:25:47:19
Wade
You really.

00:25:47:19 - 00:25:55:10
Evan
Do. Harry Potter, Midnight releases everybody that step with like their robes in their one Star Wars. If people like lightsaber battle kids.

00:25:55:13 - 00:25:59:09
Wade
Kids out way past their bedtime. But it's all for this like event.

00:25:59:11 - 00:26:00:17
Evan
Remember them. It may.

00:26:00:17 - 00:26:01:25
Wade
Remember those more.

00:26:01:25 - 00:26:03:01
Evan
Memorable and you.

00:26:03:01 - 00:26:03:28
Wade
Do.

00:26:04:01 - 00:26:25:14
Evan
It's a really fun thing that I miss because the experience and excitement present in a theater for people that committed to a midnight release was like, listen, we're all here to have a good time, and it's usually pretty packed. If it's going to do a big release. People like cheering and clapping, and it was always a very interactive crowd and I kind of miss it.

00:26:25:16 - 00:26:35:17
Wade
I miss it too, and I miss releases. Being an event like that, you know? so anyway, ambiguous endings versus certain endings.

00:26:35:19 - 00:26:36:10
Evan
Yeah.

00:26:36:13 - 00:26:38:10
Wade
Which do you prefer? Do you have a preference over?

00:26:38:10 - 00:26:57:28
Evan
I think it depends on the story. so I, I, it's probably a more prone to an ambiguous ending because it leaves room for discussion. But I think some things are more fitting with like a more certain ending. The best ones are like the hybrid where like some character has like a maybe and some characters definitely get a little bit of each one.

00:26:58:00 - 00:27:05:28
Evan
but I there's one type of ending that I really don't like, and it's the cliffhanger ending.

00:27:06:01 - 00:27:07:12
Wade
Oh, okay.

00:27:07:14 - 00:27:34:13
Evan
And if you are going to make more of the content, then great, do a cliffhanger ending. But I have a particular vendetta against Half-Life two because Half-Life two parts one and two, we haven't gotten a game in forever and ended on a hard cliffhanger, and both Chase and I have just been tortured, so that one has me kind of like, listen, cliffhangers are fine if I can get my answer another week or soon.

00:27:34:15 - 00:27:39:00
Evan
But you can't do this to me. Don't torment me for like a decade.

00:27:39:02 - 00:27:48:24
Wade
I don't know much about Half-Life. I've. I've played the second one. I've never played the first one. did Half-Life Alyx resolve to or was this prequel?

00:27:48:26 - 00:27:54:03
Evan
It's a prequel. Oh, that's that's spitting in your face. Like, oh, come on, it's incredible.

00:27:54:03 - 00:27:55:09
Wade
But I've heard it's amazing.

00:27:55:09 - 00:27:57:05
Evan
Yeah, but.

00:27:57:07 - 00:28:04:26
Evan
Yeah, it, it takes place, in a different time and city with no two different characters. I need to revisit that.

00:28:05:01 - 00:28:13:16
Wade
But cliffhanger endings I hate. What would you say is the difference between a cliffhanger ending and an ambiguous ending?

00:28:13:18 - 00:28:45:18
Evan
I think an ambiguous ending that does a good job kind of has everything kind of tied up and then leaves you with like some mystery cliffhanger endings present you with a very specific challenge or problem or situation. They're usually high suspense, high tension, and then it's usually like an A or a B, like it's really not. There's not a lot of like muddled stuff in between, like, someone falls off a cliff, but then someone's racing with the car underneath to try and catch them, and then it cuts back.

00:28:45:20 - 00:28:48:14
Evan
And so you would say, okay, that's literally a cliff.

00:28:48:19 - 00:28:49:22
Wade
That is a cliff, right?

00:28:49:22 - 00:29:02:22
Evan
Like they're hanging on a cliff. Yeah. And you know that they're hanging on a cliff. And then the screen cuts off. So you don't know if they let go or if they got saved. So there's this that is intensity of tension that strikes me as the difference between cliffhanger and ambiguous.

00:29:02:25 - 00:29:28:03
Wade
An intensity of tension. That is a great way of saying it. because it really is a, a, almost binary sort of discussion afterwards. Did this happen or this happened? Yeah. Versus and ambiguity is like, well, there's possibility there's, rumor mill, there's theater theory crafting, which, you know, for me, I think that the Final Fantasy series does that so well.

00:29:28:03 - 00:29:49:24
Wade
I remember after Final Fantasy 16 came out, I'm intact, wearing a shirt that, appeals to the ending like it alludes to the ending of the game. Like I remember when that came out. I and some other content creators we, like got together just to say, what do you think happened? hey, like, what do you think is going on in in this ending?

00:29:49:26 - 00:29:59:10
Wade
To me, there's something so rich in that. but I feel like the story earned it to to be able to have an ending like that.

00:29:59:10 - 00:30:15:09
Evan
I love that you made your own little video game book club, which I think is a good plug for us, doing just right for everyone. We're going to we're working on a concept called video. We are a book club where we'll determine a set amount of time, and we'll all get to pick and play a game together, and then we'll have some discussion about it.

00:30:15:11 - 00:30:16:03
Wade
it's gonna be amazing.

00:30:16:08 - 00:30:42:25
Evan
There's your plug in the future. okay, so as we kind of wrap up this part of our roll credits series where we just are introducing the concept, I wonder if we could just revisit a little bit how you would handle how someone thinks about the ending, depending on how much of the side content they've done. I think that that is one of the things that video game players typically have very strong opinions.

00:30:43:03 - 00:31:00:06
Evan
I don't know what it is about it. Maybe it's the investment in the agency, but you don't have a lot of like kind of softball opinions that people have. They typically are pretty strong. But when everybody has a different experience, how do we merit what those experiences were and have good discussions about it?

00:31:00:08 - 00:31:27:13
Wade
This is not exclusive to video games. It is inherent in all kinds of fandoms. I have a friend who is a diehard Star Wars fan. Okay? And almost, mockingly ridicules me when I am not cognizant of the Expanded Universe sort of novels and books. That to me is side content. Okay, like I it's like, got it.

00:31:27:13 - 00:31:33:04
Wade
I, I've watched one through nine and I'm going to include those because they're, you know, the numbered ones.

00:31:33:07 - 00:31:35:06
Evan
There's no arc. Right. Those are the movies.

00:31:35:12 - 00:31:35:27
Evan
They're, they're.

00:31:35:27 - 00:31:36:23
Wade
They're the movies.

00:31:36:23 - 00:31:38:03
Evan
Whether you like,

00:31:38:05 - 00:31:54:22
Wade
Whether you like it or not that those are the movies. Yeah. And it's like, I don't I don't need that sort of side content. It's there if I want it, but maybe I'm not going to understand all of the details of the INS or whatever it is. I don't know enough to even trigger makeup for.

00:31:54:22 - 00:31:56:03
Evan
Star Wars people.

00:31:56:05 - 00:31:58:06
Evan
Seriously. Trigger warning?

00:31:58:08 - 00:32:26:15
Wade
but that that is the way that it is with a lot of these video games too, you know? Oh, you didn't do that side quest. Well, this would be more impactful. I think that that is the tension for a developer. I don't like putting a lot of the tension in the hands of the the player. I think that that, you know, we've talked a few times about who's who's to blame or credit regarding the reception of a message.

00:32:26:19 - 00:32:42:11
Wade
Yeah. Is it the player or the developer? And I think that for the player to, it's one thing to actively choose not to engage. Yeah. Inside content, it's another to miss it and to have missed the story. Right.

00:32:42:14 - 00:32:44:02
Evan
There's just a lot of information.

00:32:44:04 - 00:33:06:14
Wade
There is to me. I mean, I'm not sure. It's just not even the same experience for, for some. So like, I don't know, like, that's something that I think that we would probably want to have like a perspective from an actual developer. Oh, that would be like that would be great. That's the question that I would love to ask.

00:33:06:14 - 00:33:19:09
Wade
Like when you are world building through this side content, are you ever afraid that the side content is doing more heavy lifting than the main scenario? Yeah. Content. I.

00:33:19:12 - 00:33:44:04
Evan
I think where it's helpful for me is getting away from the discussion of apps and video games. I thought this was trash. I thought this was good. Okay. Why? Why? I don't know, it didn't feel right. Right? I think being able to tell the story of your experience, the content that you did, what contributed to the conclusions that you drew from your experience is an important thing.

00:33:44:04 - 00:34:13:00
Evan
You say, well, for me, right? Because we we love to argue, especially online, like it's very combative. but the really kind of more sharing and connecting with like shared experience is a significant opportunity in games. But we're so as a culture in the like hobby spectrum or so so combative, in the way that a lot of this is approach that the dialog and the discourse is really very inviting.

00:34:13:00 - 00:34:36:28
Evan
And one of the things that I've enjoyed about this and the times that we've been able to spend and, you know, the friends of Eva's with some great conversations about what games meant and things like this helped provide a bit of a framework to better understand what our experience was and to ask better questions when we're talking to someone else about it, like get outside of our own hands and actually care about what somebody else's experience was, not whether they agree with you or not.

00:34:37:01 - 00:34:59:26
Wade
And that's that is such a key thing here. And so one of the things that I think that we try to do in this is we try to give vocabulary to quantify or give some qualitative metrics to engage with one another. Instead of simply saying, I'm right, you're wrong, or all of that to continue the discussion. And I think that's key.

00:34:59:26 - 00:35:11:29
Wade
I think that the reason why you and I, we have very different styles in the games that we play and preferences, but we tend to assume positive intent with one another, like, you know.

00:35:12:01 - 00:35:13:04
Evan
Typically.

00:35:13:06 - 00:35:16:23
Evan
To typically stay back. but.

00:35:16:23 - 00:35:37:16
Wade
Also we ask questions like, okay, tell me why that was, like, enticing to you. you and I have very different opinions on Baldur's Gate three, for example. Right. But you're asking me questions about how my experience has been. Now, I understand that I cut out like 90% of my playthrough in the game, and I have not even finished act three at this point.

00:35:37:16 - 00:35:45:28
Wade
So it could wrap it all up. The ending of Borders gate three could have really been the narrative for me, but it is my narrative. And that's.

00:35:45:28 - 00:36:07:06
Evan
Exactly. Yeah, that's a whole nother discussion because that game, yeah, you make such a radically different story depending on a myriad of choices that, that's one of the benefits that is that, okay, so this is a good framework that we're going to use when we approach some some roll credits. Thanks everybody for for tuning in. and we are looking forward to discussing a little bit about God of War Ragnarok.

00:36:07:06 - 00:36:22:17
Evan
Now, that'll be coming up after the mini game Stretch break. Here's some things one, we're going to catch you up on what this kind of general story is. We're going to avoid all major spoilers. and it's going to be fun. And we're going to talk more about themes that are present. And then we are just like going through the story.

00:36:22:17 - 00:36:36:05
Evan
So if you've never played it, if you don't plan on playing it or you don't want any spoilers, we're going to make sure that you understand everything that we're talking about right from the get go. So don't feel like you can't listen to it. It's a great opportunity to learn a little bit more about the game in the series.

00:36:36:05 - 00:36:43:02
Evan
And like I said, we'll avoid all the major twists and turns and make sure that you feel caught up. So we'll see you on the other side of the mini game. Stretch break.

00:36:43:02 - 00:37:01:15
Speaker 1
Hey everyone! We realized that we forgot to do the music in the mini game Stretch Break, and that's like one of our favorite parts. Or is it because we forgot it? We left it at the store and then we drove home and I don't know. So let's hit it. Three, two one by bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum.

00:37:01:18 - 00:37:06:24
Speaker 1
All right. Now that was easily the worst. Easily the best.

00:37:06:24 - 00:37:21:29
Evan
right everybody it's that time of the episode for our mini game Stretch Break. That's the part in the middle where we take a break and stretch our bodies and our minds a little bit. So let's get a stretch in. Wherever you are. Listener, viewer, take a second.

00:37:22:00 - 00:37:26:02
Evan
Be kind to your body. Give a little slow.

00:37:26:04 - 00:37:37:13
Wade
Toggle can do a stretch. He's on the bottom machines and I don't know what you're doing. Total stretch break. I'm wearing a shirt with talk. A lot of everybody listening.

00:37:37:13 - 00:37:39:16
Evan
I don't toggle a dog.

00:37:39:18 - 00:37:43:14
Wade
Toggle is a dog. Oh my gosh. Final fantasy 16 real ones. No.

00:37:43:17 - 00:37:46:02
Evan
I'm just explaining. I'm trying to include everyone. All right.

00:37:46:03 - 00:37:46:29
Wade
Toggles the best.

00:37:46:29 - 00:38:04:05
Evan
All right a little girl. Good stretch. Everybody. All right. And to help us with our mini game stretch break, we have everybody's favorite bingo wheel. The bingo wheel of vulnerability. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see it if you are listening. Here you go. Here's an audio preview. Yep, that was.

00:38:04:07 - 00:38:06:29
Wade
Pretty lackluster, but it was an audio preview.

00:38:07:00 - 00:38:13:01
Evan
Was it quiet? It was so cool. Okay, here's an audio preview.

00:38:13:03 - 00:38:17:07
Wade
There it goes. That's so funny. It almost sounds noise canceled.

00:38:17:09 - 00:38:20:12
Evan
Oh, it's probably getting compressed or gated a little bit, but that's what.

00:38:20:12 - 00:38:24:05
Wade
It sounds like. But that's it. Anyway. There's real bingo balls.

00:38:24:05 - 00:38:24:26
Evan
Yep. That are.

00:38:24:26 - 00:38:25:27
Wade
Swirling around these.

00:38:25:28 - 00:38:37:11
Evan
Numbered 150. So what we do is we each gets a number and let's start. You could guess a number as well. And then wait has these geek therapy cards. There they are. Tell us a little bit about those these cards.

00:38:37:11 - 00:38:50:08
Wade
Geek therapy card deck for clients and therapist. They are 87 practices to improve thoughts, build insight, take action in your life and de-stress. So use them to give some questions for us to consider as we are in between segments.

00:38:50:08 - 00:38:59:22
Evan
All right. What number do you want? 32 I want 42. Oh, here we go. Tell me when. Oh this one fell out.

00:38:59:25 - 00:39:04:15
Wade
Do. Oh that must be the one. It's fate. You can't defy destiny like that I.

00:39:04:15 - 00:39:06:10
Evan
Think I see it. Hold on.

00:39:06:13 - 00:39:13:09
Wade
Okay. Oh my gosh, where do you go? Given R2d2 back there. That's also what.

00:39:13:10 - 00:39:18:07
Evan
I'm going to be able to see that on the two because it's crap. But maybe I'll pan over to it and edit.

00:39:18:14 - 00:39:18:28
Wade
Seven oh.

00:39:18:28 - 00:39:20:07
Evan
Three the number is.

00:39:20:07 - 00:39:21:02
Wade
23.

00:39:21:06 - 00:39:28:23
Evan
If you guess 23 mine backwards. Michael Jordan yeah, there you go. We well, we each got one of the digits right. I had 40.

00:39:28:23 - 00:39:30:23
Wade
Two you know about 23. All right.

00:39:30:24 - 00:39:38:17
Evan
So kind of stuff into the 23rd card and let's get to chatting I knocked my headphones off. I'm gonna fix this. Oh. All right.

00:39:38:23 - 00:39:43:27
Wade
Okay. And we are 12345. There it is.

00:39:43:29 - 00:39:46:17
Evan
32 3220.

00:39:46:17 - 00:39:47:16
Wade
Okay. Are you ready?

00:39:47:16 - 00:39:49:18
Evan
23. Did you count 32 or 23?

00:39:49:24 - 00:39:53:19
Wade
Crap. 22 oh my gosh, I went for my own number. This is the danger.

00:39:53:19 - 00:39:54:06
Evan
So what's.

00:39:54:07 - 00:40:04:00
Wade
The danger? I'm so selfish. Bingo! Wheel of selfishness. Okay, here we go. Okay. Just keep going.

00:40:04:00 - 00:40:05:13
Evan
Wrong. I got it.

00:40:05:16 - 00:40:28:05
Wade
Okay, so this theme is comics. You ready for this? Comics and lots of superheroes wear armor to protect themselves from different attacks. Yeah, but if you were a superhero, what would your armor protect you from? How would it repel attacks? How does this type of armor play a role in your life? And do you already use this armor?

00:40:28:08 - 00:40:32:15
Wade
So it's really one question with like some collateral.

00:40:32:15 - 00:40:34:01
Evan
All right, just one question.

00:40:34:07 - 00:40:42:11
Wade
I'm going to do it with one question. If you were a superhero, what would your armor protect you from?

00:40:42:11 - 00:40:49:20
Evan
Okay. UV light. I just have sunscreen like that. Like that would be an answer.

00:40:49:22 - 00:40:58:13
Wade
That would be an answer. I mean, it does negate the second part of the answer, which is like, how does this type of armor play a role in your life?

00:40:58:16 - 00:40:59:02
Evan
Yes.

00:40:59:05 - 00:41:08:08
Wade
Really? So sunscreen. Okay. Listen, fine. Did you ever wear bullfrog? Did you do bullfrog sunscreen? I remember I feel like my parents, like, lathered me in that stuff.

00:41:08:08 - 00:41:17:04
Evan
It was a big thing for baseball players. Bullfrog. Because it made your hands tech gear. and so they would spray it all over their hands. But I know with pitch and stuff. Right.

00:41:17:07 - 00:41:19:04
Wade
Me and my brother, that was that.

00:41:19:04 - 00:41:20:07
Evan
Bullfrog.

00:41:20:09 - 00:41:28:03
Wade
Bullfrog. So, Yeah. So. Yeah. How does it repel attacks? How does it how does it save you from UV light? Is that your final answer?

00:41:28:03 - 00:41:41:05
Evan
No it's not. That's just an okay answer. okay. If I could have it, that would protect me from anything. I would say.

00:41:41:08 - 00:41:43:16
Wade
It's a tough one.

00:41:43:18 - 00:41:46:24
Evan
I would say other drivers getting frustrated with me on the road.

00:41:46:27 - 00:41:52:15
Wade
Oh, my gosh, are you the kind of driver that invites frustration from a.

00:41:52:18 - 00:41:58:18
Evan
No, no, no, I live it. I live in the Atlanta area. So you know how it is over here.

00:41:58:18 - 00:41:59:26
Wade
I do know what it's like.

00:41:59:26 - 00:42:17:20
Evan
What if I had protection that just everyone saw me favorably everywhere I drove. So you needed to merge. People would always merge and let you in. Whenever you had your turn signal on, they would go, oh, he he probably wants to get over it. Let me just back off a little bit. Give him some extra room. You're never getting like cut off by big trucks on the road.

00:42:17:20 - 00:42:27:03
Evan
And he's driving crazy around you. You have? I've had of armor from other drivers and their road rage and people would think favorably of me, so I would.

00:42:27:05 - 00:42:27:26
Wade
Oh, I'm like.

00:42:27:26 - 00:42:31:16
Evan
I don't have a nice, relaxing, enjoyable driving experience.

00:42:31:19 - 00:42:39:04
Wade
I like that a lot. That's good. That's got a nice intro because contextually that really matters where you are. Like, I lived in that traffic.

00:42:39:07 - 00:42:43:03
Evan
That's yeah, that's something it can get pretty bad.

00:42:43:05 - 00:43:14:26
Wade
It can get really bad. you learn to take back roads, I know that. so for me, I think, I think that I would probably have armor that I don't want to say. It protects me from negativity, but it protects me from thinking the worst of other people, if that makes sense, to like, when somebody interacts with me, I want to be able to have an armor or a filter that I can process it in the most positive light, so I can still see them positively.

00:43:14:28 - 00:43:16:15
Evan
Oh, okay. Yeah.

00:43:16:18 - 00:43:31:04
Wade
That makes sense. It's like I just need a filter. It's like, okay, that was super critical what you just said to me, but then it goes through the filter and it's like, yeah, thank you for encouraging me in this way. And like, you really helped me like, see, I need that kind of positivity filter.

00:43:31:06 - 00:43:42:05
Evan
I have armor against not seeing the best people. Yeah, I think your armor is a lot more attainable with a nice, positive mental attitude.

00:43:42:07 - 00:44:03:18
Wade
Oh, dude, you would think that. You would think that, like, I, I start every morning by trying to get my head on straight, okay? Like, I like, spend some time, like, maybe reading, or thinking or like, meditating. I used to do yoga and stuff, just like self calming sort of things, because you don't know the level of frustration that you get throughout this day.

00:44:03:20 - 00:44:05:00
Wade
people come into my office.

00:44:05:02 - 00:44:07:23
Evan
Really armor against the haters.

00:44:07:26 - 00:44:17:05
Wade
Armor against the haters, which is so useful as a content creator too. I don't get a ton of hate comparatively, but sometimes on Twitter slash X, you know, you get them in there.

00:44:17:08 - 00:44:20:19
Evan
You gotta have it. I mean, it it really makes you appreciate the good ones, right?

00:44:20:21 - 00:44:33:25
Wade
When I was younger, as a content creator, I assumed positive intent instinctually. But then trolls came for me a couple times and I was like, oh, I'm wearied from the world. I guess.

00:44:33:27 - 00:45:00:05
Evan
we're at the point where I just assume someone's a robot and not real. Unless they prove and earn the fact that they're real, it's not even worth they earned, a lot of emotion. So if you haven't earned the fact that you're a real person, you might as well be like a bot. Now, if you've interacted, if you spent time writing something thoughtful, like those kinds of things are good, but I'm not going to spend my time and emotional energy responding to something that is probably just a bot.

00:45:00:07 - 00:45:05:09
Wade
You have a version of this filter armor that's amazing.

00:45:05:11 - 00:45:09:17
Evan
And we just need to live in it. All right, everybody that's been.

00:45:09:20 - 00:45:15:26
Wade
What was a great ending. Now let's live in it. And with that, that has been our mini game Stretch Break.

00:45:15:26 - 00:45:20:14
Evan
Can we hope that you are limbered up and ready for our next segment season?

00:45:20:14 - 00:45:42:23
Wade
All right. And welcome back from the mini game Stretch Break. And we are now having talked about endings and resolution and what makes a good one or a proper one. Let's put it to practice because we're starting a new segment called Roll Credits because and over here that could be the jingle Heaven over here just finished God of War Ragnarok.

00:45:42:23 - 00:45:58:05
Wade
And, while many of us finished it when it first came out. No shade. this is, this is a great opportunity to process somebody who's emotions are still raw from it. So, Evan, how does it feel to be on the other side of God of War Ragnarok?

00:45:58:08 - 00:46:13:08
Evan
I like this I like this segment, this idea that when we roll credits kind of quickly, we'd capture some of our thoughts about it. And we just this is kind of our video game journey here. It's a bit of a journal. It feels good. It was so good.

00:46:13:10 - 00:46:34:03
Wade
You picked up this game and played it more than I ever dreamed that you would have. Like, it just didn't strike me as the kind of game that you would be really into because it's so story driven. It's so like the gameplay is great, but it's just so narrative driven. So like, you really enjoyed this game, played the heck out of it.

00:46:34:05 - 00:46:47:16
Evan
I played it in a way that I didn't want it to end. I was doing things to try and not like. When I got near the end, I was like, I gotta, I want to do some other stuff because I don't.

00:46:48:09 - 00:47:05:21
Evan
If I keep going on the main story, that means it will be over at some point. And that was tough. And I haven't felt that way in a game in a while, because typically you kind of get to the point and then you're like, all right, I'm ready for it to be over. And then I just sprint to the finish.

00:47:05:24 - 00:47:10:29
Evan
kind of. This one was not that way. I lingered in it quite a bit.

00:47:11:01 - 00:47:35:14
Wade
So before we really get into the weeds of it, because that like that first impression, like, I think that was my first impression, too. I think that's a lot of people who played just an immaculate game. But before we get into the weeds of the ending and all of the things that you loved about this game, why don't you explain the story of the game, especially for those that may not have played or even watched playthroughs of God of War, brand new to the franchise, all that stuff.

00:47:35:14 - 00:47:37:27
Wade
Can you set the stage for us to talk a little bit about the franchise?

00:47:37:27 - 00:47:57:26
Evan
Great. So God of War Ragnarok is a game that is an extension of an earlier game. So they kind of really took it the series in a different arc for these last two games that they've made. So there's there's God of War, which it's not really a remake, but you played a lot of the other God of War, so I'll let you talk.

00:47:57:26 - 00:47:58:02
Wade
Yeah, I.

00:47:58:02 - 00:47:59:14
Evan
Did a second.

00:47:59:16 - 00:47:59:23
Wade
yeah.

00:48:00:00 - 00:48:18:19
Evan
But just think of it as this kind of two game capsule, and it's this father son story between a guy named Kratos who is a God of war, hence the name there, and his son Atreus, or as I call them, as a Dune fan. I just call them a treaties the whole time.

00:48:18:21 - 00:48:20:26
Wade
Trade is nice.

00:48:20:28 - 00:48:25:26
Evan
but tell us a little bit about the franchise as a whole before I talk about the specifics of this one.

00:48:26:03 - 00:48:47:18
Wade
Yeah. Originally God of War, released on, I think, PlayStation two first. it was it focused on Greek mythology, first of all. and it was brutally, like violent. I remember that my parents wouldn't let me play it, at first, it seriously, because of the blood and the gore and all that kind of stuff.

00:48:47:20 - 00:49:09:26
Wade
very, very gory, much, much gorier back in the day than the newer ones are, I believe, even though they're really gory, too. it was just gratuitous gore in the original, original games, but God of War one, two and three. and I think, Chains of Prometheus, that may be an expansion or something. There's something there's some chains sort of thing.

00:49:09:26 - 00:49:22:27
Wade
Anyway, those focus on Greek mythology, but with this new one, they've moved over to Norse mythology, but it's connected because it's like Kratos turning over a new leaf. Yeah. After he's killed all of Olympus.

00:49:22:27 - 00:49:28:11
Evan
Yeah. He kind of shifts universes into other mythology, which is pretty cool. it's.

00:49:28:11 - 00:49:32:26
Wade
A neat way of continuing the story. Not fully a reboot, but kind of.

00:49:33:02 - 00:49:53:03
Evan
Yeah. So if you haven't played or are interested in playing, just a reminder. We're not going to do any big spoilers or anything like that. We will talk about some of the characters and things like that, but the big twists and turns will leave those kind of unresolved. and so it's this father son story where he definitely has a past that he references, and they do a really good job of this, so they catch you up.

00:49:53:03 - 00:50:09:12
Evan
But I haven't played any of the other ones. I've only played God of War and then this one, God of War Ragnarok. And so I didn't feel like behind or anything at all. I felt like it gave me the context that I needed to understand, to experience the gravity of the moments, the way they were supposed to happen.

00:50:09:20 - 00:50:29:06
Evan
He has a past. It was different, and we kind of move on. So, it's this father son story where you play most of the game with the main character, Kratos, and you have a companion that will kind of rotate through, so that moves a lot of the dialog, and the story forward through conversations that they have while you're traveling and journeying.

00:50:29:06 - 00:50:49:22
Evan
And we'll get into that a little bit. but it's the story of the kind of their journey and experience in this world. So if you haven't played it or interact with the series, you are a god like character who has big muscles and like, crazy tattoos. and you're kind of running around with your child, who is a teenager at this point?

00:50:49:25 - 00:51:17:05
Wade
Yeah, it's a father son story. more than anything, I think. And, it also has just some of the best fast paced gameplay that I've played. especially in a story driven game like this is just like, wow, seamless. One other technical aspect of this game is that it is, a one camera shot. Yeah, from beginning to end, which is a really interesting narrative technique.

00:51:17:06 - 00:51:18:17
Wade
I thought that was really cool.

00:51:18:20 - 00:51:37:05
Evan
Yeah, it's third, third person, so you're kind of over the shoulder. but as far as the story itself, it's it's really, really well told. so some of the well, maybe we should go into a little story time to introduce some of the characters that we can talk about.

00:51:37:08 - 00:51:44:19
Wade
Please, could you set the stage and just begin to tell us the story of God of War Ragnarok?

00:51:50:20 - 00:51:54:20
Evan
Step into a world.

00:51:54:22 - 00:52:24:01
Evan
A world, a father, a world of sons. A world of daughters and mothers. And the clashes and interactions between these myriad of characters. A story that everyone can see themselves in. Because everyone had a father, everyone had a mother. Everyone had to learn and develop and grow. And everyone's on a journey. A journey that involves giant jellyfish dogs, giant dogs, little dogs, medium sized hogs, wolves, bears, ogres, and other various celestial creatures.

00:52:24:01 - 00:52:55:08
Evan
A giant snake, a small snake, some other creatures that I wouldn't even name, some dragons characters such as Kratos, the main character. His son Atreus, who journeys with you. A petulant little punk who has to figure out his way in the world and is really trying to self-actualize and individuate from his father, the God that you have immensely infuriated by murdering one of their family members, Freya, who begins the game hunting you down.

00:52:55:10 - 00:53:35:16
Evan
She's really not happy with you. You really, really have to fend her off. And also a man with no body who you chop off his head and carry him around on your hip, and he provides context and story beats named Mimir. You rescue some people. There's characters like Odin and Thor and Heimdall from Norse mythology, and you travel around the nine realms adventuring and learning, making friends with elves towards and enemies with just the same as you journey into hell and as you journey into Asgard, you find all sorts of friends and characters along the way to help you in your journey and an ever changing and ever evolving story.

00:53:35:18 - 00:53:49:24
Evan
So that is basically where God of War starts and ends. You know exactly what is happening now. You're totally caught up and we're going to talk about some of the themes that are present in God of War that kind of carry out of that. Wait, what would you add that I missed?

00:53:49:26 - 00:53:56:24
Wade
I don't know, I'm so stuck on you cut his head off and now he's your friend and you're adventuring and learning together.

00:53:56:26 - 00:53:58:07
Evan
It's what happens.

00:53:58:09 - 00:54:01:13
Wade
It is what happens. But there's a character.

00:54:01:16 - 00:54:07:00
Evan
In there who is, a godlike character. I guess similar because he or.

00:54:07:00 - 00:54:07:25
Wade
He lives after.

00:54:07:25 - 00:54:17:18
Evan
Body. So, yeah, it's him that he's it. And you, like, carry him around and you, like, hold him up to things because you can't read like that's one of the sexual you can't read.

00:54:17:18 - 00:54:18:29
Wade
So he is the God.

00:54:19:01 - 00:54:24:07
Evan
This guy reads to you and your son reads to you, and it rules. Yeah, it definitely rules.

00:54:24:10 - 00:54:30:08
Wade
It's the story of a father who can't read and and how he forces heads and sons to do it for him.

00:54:30:08 - 00:54:45:14
Evan
He refuses to learn. Actually, he really? Because there's this thing if you don't have a companion with you and you, there's these little guide stone tablets. If you don't have a companion with you, he just walks up and he goes, And then you get the XP points. But if you have somebody with you, they like, read it out.

00:54:45:21 - 00:55:02:11
Wade
The way you've described. This is how I imagine, like my mom wants me to be in helping her figure out how to download and, transfer like a PDF or something like that. She's going to decapitate me and just put my hands in front of the PDFs.

00:55:02:14 - 00:55:04:29
Evan
I don't see it. I don't.

00:55:05:01 - 00:55:08:21
Wade
It's like it's a this is a good episode, I'm telling you, right now, my.

00:55:08:21 - 00:55:08:29
Evan
Favorite.

00:55:09:05 - 00:55:10:06
Wade
Like, this feels right.

00:55:10:09 - 00:55:19:01
Evan
Yeah. My favorite thing doing textbook families when they read you everything in the menu, I see file save, save as open. It's like, okay, stop.

00:55:19:01 - 00:55:19:25
Wade
Just open.

00:55:19:26 - 00:55:23:23
Evan
There's no there's 18 things. Just do you see this specific one.

00:55:23:25 - 00:55:27:27
Wade
And this kind of how Kratos is with them? Amir and Atreus, you know, that's great.

00:55:27:27 - 00:55:48:20
Evan
Yeah. That's great. So you know Kratos is the dad, Atreus is the son. And so you have this myriad of adventures. So let's just talk about some general points with with this game. Now that you're cut up. The pacing is amazing. my brother said it best where he said it is a game that really respects your time.

00:55:48:22 - 00:56:13:07
Evan
because it's it doesn't make you double back and wander aimlessly. Yeah. It gives you pretty clear direction about where to go. It uses loading screens really creatively, where it adds plot elements and story, where you're always moving, you're always doing something that the design philosophy had to be something around. Like for the most part, you don't go more than 30s without having to input some kind of button.

00:56:13:07 - 00:56:37:25
Evan
Now you have like cutscenes, but it keeps you really engaged, but gives you really good, engaging combat and exciting moments and then lets you kind of rest and reflect even if something exciting is happening on screen. it gives you like a little bit of a break. So the fatigue factor, it paces itself out really amazingly. So that was one of my favorite things about the game, is that it really, really keeps you playing in a way that really respects your time.

00:56:37:25 - 00:56:39:16
Evan
Like my brother said.

00:56:39:19 - 00:56:58:28
Wade
That's a really great point. I had not thought about how how engaged you are even in these cutscenes, moment to moment, and that that is as a guy that loves almost exclusively very long cutscene type games. Yeah, that was, I remember, just a welcome addition in God of War.

00:56:59:00 - 00:57:02:01
Evan
Yeah, it was really good. it.

00:57:02:04 - 00:57:16:26
Wade
So I want to like, ask you a couple of questions about, the themes of the game, but also your experience of the ending itself. So can you tell us a little bit like, what are you taking? What are you thinking about as you finished up this game?

00:57:16:28 - 00:57:40:27
Evan
So I think there were a number of themes that I've really gravitated towards. The game has a lot of things to say, especially if you do some of the side content, stuff, you can really see where they build a lot of the world and the characters, the characters are built through the actions and decisions that they make.

00:57:40:29 - 00:58:06:29
Evan
I think a lot of the time, the characters really do feel like they're making decisions. You can tell that they're really wrestling with things. There's enough foreshadowing that you feel like you're anticipating some of the things that are happening, like the possibilities, especially towards the end. but it doesn't feel prescribed like there's they feel like you have a little bit of agency even for or the characters are experiencing agency in their world, which is one of the themes that the game deals with.

00:58:06:29 - 00:58:29:10
Evan
It deals with, our fate is our fate sealed, the actions that we take and others, or the things that we can do to change that fate. And what I really enjoyed was how the nature of a person or a thing contributes to its fate. What is our nature? How much can we act outside of it? How much do we live into it?

00:58:29:10 - 00:58:37:18
Evan
And what level of agency do we have to determine or change our future or fate?

00:58:37:20 - 00:58:52:00
Wade
That seems to be a theme that is is resonant in a lot of video games defying destiny, changing fate, all that kind of stuff. What do you think the Norse mythology esthetic really does for that theme?

00:58:52:02 - 00:59:23:04
Evan
Well, the esthetic and the world that you're in is just really vibrant. So the colors are great. Everything really pops. The different realms that you travel to feel distinct and unique. You can tell if you're in like a desert area or a snow area or and they're all very clear what you're in and kind of what they're all about, which I think really contributes to the story because those characters live in the environment, but the environment goes before the characters that you meet.

00:59:23:11 - 00:59:46:13
Evan
So they are an extension of and the characters are a product of the setting that they live in or grow up in, and it feels very lived in. I think the world does so within mythology. They have a lot of options to explore those things. But this idea of like prophecy, and how you fulfill prophecy, who determines it?

00:59:46:16 - 01:00:07:22
Evan
it really is good the way that it the game describes prophecy and fate is through pictures. So there's these like murals that are kind of, it's almost like filigree, like they're gold and like, kind of metallic looking. And you, there's these characters that are able to kind of see these visions of the future, these prophecies. And so you've got a different area.

01:00:07:22 - 01:00:25:29
Evan
Sometimes they're written on a wall, sometimes they're in these little, like, almost like trifold boards that kind of open up like these big cabinets. And so what you get is a visual representation of what could happen. And then the characters will talk about some of the specifics in it, but it actually leaves a lot of space for you to interpret it in the way that you see the picture going to.

01:00:26:05 - 01:00:48:06
Evan
It'll give you enough of a beat that you're not too off base, with what it is like. You're not going to be overly confused, but it instills a sense of kind of mystery that I think reinforces that theme of mythology, where it is this like mythological prophecy that might get fulfilled in a number of ways, and how it kind of connects back to your fate.

01:00:48:08 - 01:01:14:08
Wade
Incredibly interesting stuff. I had not really thought immediately about how the, murals give you just enough to think about what it could be and how to interpret it, but there's multiple ways that you could interpret, and that does lead to some of the kind of ambiguity that we talked about a little bit earlier in the show. you mentioned this idea of defying fate, destiny.

01:01:14:10 - 01:01:29:02
Wade
What is this relationship of a father and son tell you about themes like the possibilities of change, the possibility of changing the future, changing yourself, all that kind of stuff. How did that make you think through these things?

01:01:29:05 - 01:02:00:06
Evan
Well, I think the central way that it explores this idea of change to me, was all about individual change. So when they talk about fate and destiny and things like that, it has a way of funneling it all back into the individual all and the individual's decisions. So every time that it takes it wide to explore this idea of fate, destiny, those kinds of things, it will re enforce and tell a story that creates a focus on an individual.

01:02:00:08 - 01:02:48:23
Evan
So I think a lot of what it had to say about fate and destiny was actually about personal change and how personal change is in sacrifice, which is kind of connected, is the mechanism that we experience change in our fate and in our destiny. And so it takes a external locus of control with like destiny and fate and answers it and challenges it and explores it with a robust emphasis on individual responsibility and opportunity in these like pivotal moments that I think probably the best example I have this, is that any big change that the characters challenge with their fate or where things, are seemingly ending up for them in their lives, is

01:02:48:23 - 01:03:18:16
Evan
set up by these really neat little vignettes and kind of motifs that you see them chewing and wrestling with these ideas of change in small decisions in the story along the way, so that when they get to the big ones, it feels valid. You've seen both sides of the exploration of the change that they want to make, whether it's possible to change, whether it's good, if they're willing to deal with the consequences of this nature that they want to change into, or what they want to see.

01:03:18:19 - 01:03:42:21
Evan
So it feels very fair, and it feels like you have arrived with the characters in their wrestling. So when they make that decision, it feels like a natural progression of the character. And I think those little moments and those little things, the dialog, especially along the way to get there while you're traveling, is a great use of time, keeps you engaged with the story, helps you settle in, and then it gives some good pacing for reflection as well.

01:03:42:23 - 01:04:05:21
Wade
So yeah, I mean, you've kind of mentioned this a few times here. The immersion of the game and the worldbuilding of the game in these quiet moments that allow you to reflect on these big moments. It seems like this game does story telling in such a unique way that gives you the player, the agency of what to do with the things that you're experiencing?

01:04:05:24 - 01:04:20:08
Wade
not every game is going to go from these blockbuster style battles or moments into, a canoe ride, or whatever, so that you're kind of thinking and processing on your own, at your own speed, on your own terms. Right?

01:04:20:10 - 01:04:41:08
Evan
Yeah. It's just very I think the theme would be thoughtful. The whole the whole thing is really, really thoughtful. There's very few times where I felt like something was just dropped in as a filler or wasn't part of the original intent, like the the web that is woven with the story and the way that it's paced, felt really, really, really good to me.

01:04:41:08 - 01:05:09:10
Evan
And it was another thing that my brother has said is that he said, nobody does spectacle like God of War. So the scale of moments is big. Yeah, the size of the things that happen in the foreground, in the background and the enemies in fighting, feel really good. And then the combat mechanics were good. Improved from the first game, I think in a big way, partially because what the hardware could do, the first God of War was really pushing up against what the PS4 could do.

01:05:09:12 - 01:05:10:10
Wade
Yeah.

01:05:10:12 - 01:05:16:10
Evan
And this one being kind of a flagship for the PS5 was awesome. And the controller cannot be overstated. This, the.

01:05:16:16 - 01:05:16:25
Wade
Oh.

01:05:16:25 - 01:05:44:17
Evan
Yeah, in the controller contributes so much to that feeling of like, punchiness and sparkle and like the weight to things, with the way that it gives you kind of that tactile feedback. I noticed that especially in this game, there's some games that use it, and there's some games that use it spectacularly. This is one of those that, it really felt like things had some weight that went along with the sound and the camera work and things like that, which was amazing.

01:05:44:19 - 01:05:58:10
Wade
So this segment is called Roll credits. Okay. And so we do want to kind of assess the ending a little bit, on this one. So you're, you're sounding generally really positive about this experience. Is that right.

01:05:58:11 - 01:06:21:13
Evan
Yeah I think I think that the game did a good job saying a lot of different things. it didn't stay straight on what its main themes were. You had some kind of side things that explored, okay. There's a particular section that I mentioned on another episode that, kind of dealt with addiction out of nowhere that I thought was just pretty remarkable in the way that you experience that.

01:06:21:15 - 01:06:33:21
Evan
I won't talk about that too much in detail. You can go back and listen to the end of I think it's episode two, where we discuss kind of that long form ending and.

01:06:33:23 - 01:06:56:09
Wade
So with an ending that we talk about, there's four different criteria for an ending. Yeah. I'd love for us to kind of hear from you what you think worked about this ending. So let's talk a little bit about resolution. Do you feel like the central conflict was resolved in this or some of the conflicts that you felt were, you know, addressed throughout the game?

01:06:56:09 - 01:07:00:10
Wade
Did they satisfactorily, get tied.

01:07:00:10 - 01:07:18:24
Evan
Up? Yeah. I mean, I think they do. I think that it tried to say a lot of things, and I think it was successful in doing that. in each of the characters feels like they really do have their own experience and challenges. And any time you a lot of games ask more questions than they answer. and this is not really one of those games.

01:07:18:24 - 01:07:47:09
Evan
They do a really good job of to me and my experience wrapping up and creating resolution in all the questions that it asks, anything that it doesn't answer is because it's bringing up the next question for that character and that character's development, and creates a sense of tension for the next game. the central theme that is kind of explored in the challenge, it's kind of layered, is this idea of change in what we can become.

01:07:47:14 - 01:08:12:21
Evan
But really, more than that, this entire to kind of game arc is really about the choices and sacrifices that other people make that can benefit, specifically family members, and the things that they give up and the reasons why they make decisions to help us potentially become the people that we want to become or could become, even at their own expense.

01:08:12:27 - 01:08:27:21
Evan
I think that is really the biggest theme of the whole game to me, is the relationship between family members and then the trade offs and sacrifices that people are willing to make. Parents, spouses, friends.

01:08:27:23 - 01:08:47:10
Wade
I mean, I don't have a son or anything, but you do get that sort of feeling of loyalty to the people that you do care about. Your family members or, just the things that you do care about. What am I willing to give up for those? I mean, I think that that's where this game really does soar.

01:08:47:13 - 01:08:55:20
Wade
in a lot of ways. Similarly, the idea of transformation is Kratos the same at the beginning as he is the end, you know?

01:08:55:20 - 01:08:57:05
Evan
And you'll have to find out why.

01:08:57:11 - 01:09:18:14
Wade
And you'll have to find out why. Yeah, but you felt like this. So this was one of the issues with I think, the original God of Wars. one, two and three. I really felt like Kratos was just like this, like brutal, wrathful sort of things. New things happened to him that fanned the flames of his anger. But.

01:09:18:14 - 01:09:30:24
Wade
So maybe he was more angry at the end than he was at the beginning. But it really was kind of this static sort of character. But in this game, you feel as though the transformation was believable. It was, dynamic.

01:09:30:27 - 01:09:54:14
Evan
I mean, it it does a great job of getting you there, and it lets you participate in the wrestling and in a way that makes you frustrated with the characters because it feels realistic in some ways. Like you get you're like, no, don't you know when you're just pleading with a character not to do something because you can see the ways that it's going to be harmful?

01:09:54:14 - 01:10:17:28
Evan
You see the big picture, those kind of things. That's how I can kind of tell that I'm more invested in things, as when I feel like I have stake in the decisions that they want to make, and I'm like, oh, if you could only see this in this, or you're or you're being deceived in this scene, like, really don't, what this game does a really good job of is putting roles that you see yourself in and relationships front and center.

01:10:18:03 - 01:10:46:21
Evan
So you can't not see yourself in the some of the roles in this game. Even if you don't have a kid, you've seen a child. So you see it from the role of Atreus. Even if you aren't married, you have seen relationships or have had some kind of experience with relationships and sacrifice. Everybody has family, everybody has friends that they engage with, people that you meet along the way, that you get to know, that you learn to trust, and then you get betrayed or your expectations don't meet up.

01:10:46:24 - 01:10:49:27
Evan
you the human experience is very present in this story.

01:10:49:29 - 01:10:56:07
Wade
Yeah. Last two components of suspense and surprise. anything to add? There?

01:10:56:09 - 01:11:17:12
Evan
Yeah, I think really, given the scene where they kind of left the game and let it linger, I think a lot of most of what it had to say, it said more in the middle. and yeah, I think that's not necessarily a bad thing because they kind of have to tighten it up because they have more story to tell.

01:11:17:12 - 01:11:37:28
Evan
So the characters need to end in these places. It seems like, but it kind of experiences the with you Star Wars analogies earlier. like, you know, the middle movie in a trilogy tends to be like one of the coolest movies typically. Right. Because it can be a transition point. Like, it doesn't have to totally close everything down.

01:11:38:00 - 01:12:07:03
Evan
and it doesn't have to earn your trust with the concept, like you're bought in. And so it gets it gets to do the most fun stuff. Typically Empire Strikes Back to Towers. Those are two examples of like, those are just great movies because they're kind of some of the interim stuff. I think a lot of this happens in this game too, where the story beats and the way that it moves through the middle portion, has the most freedom to tell the story and give commentary to those things.

01:12:07:03 - 01:12:17:11
Evan
And it does a great job to contribute to the ending. but I will say that the kind of wrap up,

01:12:17:14 - 01:12:29:23
Evan
I don't know if it connected as much in some of the ways that, the I didn't feel as engaged in it. I felt like we just like, okay, we created this tension with this character.

01:12:29:27 - 01:12:30:09
Wade
Yeah.

01:12:30:10 - 01:12:45:23
Evan
We've created some suspense, but now we need to get past this, and now we need to get past this one. And so it kind of had like a, like a punch list almost of characters that we need to either fight, talk to or resolve, fight, talk to a resolve. And so you kind of felt like you were just going down a checklist.

01:12:45:26 - 01:13:08:27
Evan
Some of the moments were more meaningful, and then it does a good job of breaking it up. But I would say most of what it had to say, it's set in the middle and then it nailed it's kind of central theme at the end. But some of the wrap up and engagement with some of the side characters other meaningful, was not as meaningful and kind of engaging as the little portions where they had more time to explore.

01:13:12:07 - 01:13:18:16
Wade
What is the lasting impression this game is going to make on you?

01:13:18:19 - 01:13:20:09
Evan
We didn't talk about this before.

01:13:20:11 - 01:13:24:27
Wade
This was not a prepared question. This is the surprise and that.

01:13:25:00 - 01:13:32:12
Evan
A lightly prepared. We just like to have some structure. So we're not around.

01:13:32:15 - 01:14:06:15
Wade
The reason I ask is because, you know great stories that really impact us, and stay with us. They usually are things in the religious world, religious context and religious studies and stuff. We talk about mythos and the idea that myths inform our, ethos. It informs our belief systems and our personality. So what is the thing that you would like to integrate from your experience with this game?

01:14:06:18 - 01:14:09:04
Wade
It.

01:14:09:06 - 01:14:33:19
Evan
Did a really neat job resolving, I think, if you will, if you subscribe to this idea that the central theme is the relationship to others and then the decisions and sacrifices they make and how it relates to our ability to understand our nature and choose and shape ourselves and our destiny. It surprised me in a really good way.

01:14:33:21 - 01:15:03:21
Evan
in the ending, you realize some motivations that are revealed kind of slowly over time and in a game where everything is always companion based and there's chatter and dialog and kind of quippy things that move everything along, you get this moment where it's just you and the main character again. and you learn some information in an ambiguous way.

01:15:03:23 - 01:15:35:09
Evan
in, in like a, it's a picture, you know, that you kind of see, and yeah, for a character that is gruff and stoic, you get this genuine moment of like shock and admiration that is well built by some cut scenes earlier. And I think the lasting impact for me is the appreciation and the process of understanding the sacrifice that other people make to help you have the life that you have.

01:15:35:12 - 01:15:59:03
Wade
there you have it's sacrifice, change, possibility of defying what's already been laid out for you. I think these are really, really great things to integrate. Now, that's Evan's experience of God of War Ragnarok. but we'd love for you to reflect on your own credits that have been rolled. How do you incorporate and integrate those lessons into your own life, and how do you think deeply about the endings?

01:15:59:06 - 01:16:02:09
Wade
and with that, that has been our segment on Rolled

01:16:02:09 - 01:16:02:25
Wade
credits.

01:16:02:25 - 01:16:07:27
Evan
Let's roll those credits. And by roll the credits, I mean let's go to games before games.

01:16:07:29 - 01:16:10:07
Wade
That's right.

01:16:13:20 - 01:16:14:15
Unknown
Oh.

01:16:14:15 - 01:16:29:15
Speaker 1
Thanks everyone for tuning in. We really enjoyed this episode and we're so grateful that you watched it and listened to it. Thanks to singing, for the laughter, for the use of their music. Thanks to Nick Smith for doing the graphics and as always, have a fantastic week. But I.

01:16:49:19 - 01:17:00:15
Unknown
Oh.

01:17:00:18 - 01:17:02:28
Unknown
You.